All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/17/2013 11:01 AM
All you say if Brady had an All Pro defense and O-line and that's why he won SB's and is successful. 
Brady played on a talented team that would have done well with or without him. That's a fact. They won 11 games without him when he was injured, and that was with a guy under center who had never started a single NFL game before that season.

The team has always been talented and filled with players who fit their roles well. Brady is simply one piece of that puzzle but gets all the hype because he is the QB when in fact he could be (and was) replaced with no real negative impact on the team.
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1/17/2013 11:10 AM (edited)
If we want to discuss the O-line that Brady had had protecting him, here is where New England fell in sack percentage:

2001 - 26
2002 - 7
2003 - 13
2004 - 5
2005 - 6
2006 - 8
2007 - 4
2009 - 2
2010 - 6
2011 - 2
2012 - 5

Usually a very good o-line protecting him.  Rarely elite.
1/17/2013 11:08 AM
Big dropoff in 2008, wonder what happened that year...
1/17/2013 11:08 AM
Posted by bistiza on 1/17/2013 10:58:00 AM (view original):
You said he's constantly had an amazing offensive line, and I think you're overhyping that. 

In all the years Brady has played for NE going back to 2003, the team never ranked worse than 9th in the league in sacks per game allowed.  Brady gets sacked an average of less than 2 times per game in every single year he's played back to 2003.
You said he had fantastic weapons his whole career, but you haven't named them in the period where he was part of 3 Super Bowl winning teams, and putting up great offensive numbers.
The defense won the first Super Bowl and he got the hype and the MVP and deserved neither (the team didn't deserve to win either what with the cheating and all, but that's another point). The defense wasn't shabby the other years, either.

The offensive line was always good as I've already said.

Brady has simply never made any plays another decent QB couldn't have made in the same exact situation.


Not sure why the second part of this is a response, because you don't say anything besides for the o-line you're hyping.  
1/17/2013 11:10 AM
Posted by AlCheez on 1/17/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Big dropoff in 2008, wonder what happened that year...
Right.  So it really doesn't apply.  I'll take it out.
1/17/2013 11:16 AM (edited)
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/17/2013 11:10:00 AM (view original):
Posted by AlCheez on 1/17/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Big dropoff in 2008, wonder what happened that year...
Right.  So it really doesn't apply.  I'll take it out.

Actually, my point was that it is kind of germane to the discussion.  If the argument's out there that Brady was sacked so little because he was always been behind a great line, the fact that Cassel got sacked so much more behind what I would assume was pretty much the same line says something.

1/17/2013 11:13 AM
Not sure why the second part of this is a response, because you don't say anything besides for the o-line you're hyping. 

There is no hype. I gave you statistics you're ignoring.

And Cassel holds the ball way too long. It didn't cost the team wins for the most part (11-5 is a season most teams would love to have), so Cassell was able to get the job done.

Speaking of Cassell, when he left NE, he wasn't able to be as successful. Could it be he had a talented team around him that helped make him a success in NE? You betcha. Brady has always had the same luxury.
1/17/2013 11:15 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/15/2013 3:40:00 PM (view original):
I won't deny he's had a very good offensive line most of his career here.  But I think he's also very good at sensing pressure and getting rid of the ball quickly.  I think he does an excellent job of building rapport with his receivers, getting on the same page with them as best as he can in practice.  Moss was a shell of himself until he went to New England.  Also note that Gronk has been hurt most of this year.  And if he wins a Super Bowl it will be without him.  So he has Welker (who was nobody until he came to New England) and Hernandez as elite receivers.  He's never had a running game.  Nobody's ever faced New England and said that they had to stop the running back.
AlCheez, good point.  See my first 3 sentences here.
1/17/2013 11:18 AM
Posted by bistiza on 1/17/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Not sure why the second part of this is a response, because you don't say anything besides for the o-line you're hyping. 

There is no hype. I gave you statistics you're ignoring.

And Cassel holds the ball way too long. It didn't cost the team wins for the most part (11-5 is a season most teams would love to have), so Cassell was able to get the job done.

Speaking of Cassell, when he left NE, he wasn't able to be as successful. Could it be he had a talented team around him that helped make him a success in NE? You betcha. Brady has always had the same luxury.
You told me the Pats were top 9 in sacks allowed each year.  I gave you similar stats in sack percentage, which I'd argue is a better statistic.  The fact that they finished so low in 2001 and was average in 2003 make me think that you may be wrong in those years.

They finished 2nd a couple times, but I don't get the impression that they're this elite o-line that allows Brady to wait all day to throw the ball.  He also gets rid of the ball quickly.  Watch any Brady highlight, and I bet 9 times out of 10 he doesn't have the ball for more than 3 seconds.
1/17/2013 11:22 AM
Nevermind, I see you didn't include 2001, the first year Brady and the Pats won a Super Bowl.  Pats finished 13th in sacks allowed in 2003, the 2nd year Brady won a Super Bowl with the Pats.
1/17/2013 11:22 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/17/2013 10:36:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/17/2013 10:31:00 AM (view original):
Yeah, Moss had no career until he arrived at NE.   Welker had a bazillion catches in college and 67 in MIA.    Branch was comparable in SEA.

Wiggins was better when he left NE for MN.

I missed on Fauria in CAR but he was better in SEA

I've already said, early on, that Brady deserves a lot of credit for NE success.   But you guys are acting like it was Brady and a bunch of slugs.   It wasn't.
He didn't have the weapons other teams with great QBs had.  That's what I'm arguing.  I don't think there was one receiver pre-Welker/Moss that would be a #1 on more than half the teams in the NFL.  Maybe 2/3 of them.  
This reached pointless yesterday but I'll repeat it just for the hell of it.

Colston(7th round pick), Moore/Thomas(undrafted) and Bush(never a full season in NO) are no better/no worse than what Brady had.

Garcon, Collie, Stokely and Addai/Donald Brown are no better/no worse than what Brady had.

If you want to say Wayne/Harrison/James were, I can't argue that but you can't argue that the players that the NFL thought were castaways were actually really good players that NO/Indy lucked into and that the ones NE got were really just castaways that Brady elevated.
1/17/2013 11:25 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/17/2013 11:22:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/17/2013 10:36:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/17/2013 10:31:00 AM (view original):
Yeah, Moss had no career until he arrived at NE.   Welker had a bazillion catches in college and 67 in MIA.    Branch was comparable in SEA.

Wiggins was better when he left NE for MN.

I missed on Fauria in CAR but he was better in SEA

I've already said, early on, that Brady deserves a lot of credit for NE success.   But you guys are acting like it was Brady and a bunch of slugs.   It wasn't.
He didn't have the weapons other teams with great QBs had.  That's what I'm arguing.  I don't think there was one receiver pre-Welker/Moss that would be a #1 on more than half the teams in the NFL.  Maybe 2/3 of them.  
This reached pointless yesterday but I'll repeat it just for the hell of it.

Colston(7th round pick), Moore/Thomas(undrafted) and Bush(never a full season in NO) are no better/no worse than what Brady had.

Garcon, Collie, Stokely and Addai/Donald Brown are no better/no worse than what Brady had.

If you want to say Wayne/Harrison/James were, I can't argue that but you can't argue that the players that the NFL thought were castaways were actually really good players that NO/Indy lucked into and that the ones NE got were really just castaways that Brady elevated.
I don't know why you aren't including Wayne with Garcon, Collie, etc.  He's still a Colt.

We'll disagree on Colston's talent, I suppose.  Thomas' too.  Bush played most games with the Saints.  Sproles is excellent out of the backfield.  
1/17/2013 11:30 AM
Same reason I'm allowing you to forget that Welker has caught 100 passes every year for the last decade.   He's still a Patriot and I don't think you can argue that he's pretty damn good.
1/17/2013 11:32 AM
"He didn't have the weapons other teams with great QBs had.  That's what I'm arguing.  I don't think there was one receiver pre-Welker/Moss that would be a #1 on more than half the teams in the NFL.  Maybe 2/3 of them. "

He put up great numbers for the first half of his career, without very good weapons, and led his team to 3 Super Bowl wins.

1/17/2013 11:38 AM
Super Bowl wins are nice.   Just ask Trent Dilfer. 

I'd argue "great numbers without very good weapons". 
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