All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
2/4/2013 4:26 PM
Saying something over and over does not increase its validity.....saying 'I am strong in my beliefs and that frustrates people' may help your own self esteem, but it does not mean you've frustrated anyone.......
2/4/2013 5:34 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 2/4/2013 2:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by stinenavy on 2/4/2013 2:32:00 PM (view original):
Brees, Peyton, Brady, Rodgers would be my top tier.

Flacco is in a class with Rape, Eli, Ryan, maybe some others in tier 2.
I don't even know if he should be that high. Football outsiders have him at 17 for 2012. That doesn't include playoffs, but still, he's behind Alex Smith and Sam Bradford.
I'd rather have that tard Flacco over those 2.
2/4/2013 5:35 PM
Posted by edsortails on 2/4/2013 4:26:00 PM (view original):
Saying something over and over does not increase its validity.....saying 'I am strong in my beliefs and that frustrates people' may help your own self esteem, but it does not mean you've frustrated anyone.......
It increases the validity for the closed minded fools.

2/5/2013 8:24 AM
Most people have the habit of over rating QBs based upon post season success.

I'm not saying post season success doesn't matter at all, but it doesn't (and shouldn't) mean nearly as much as many people think in terms of rating how good the QB is at doing his job.

Yes, winning is part of his job, but it should not be forgotten that winning is also a function of an entire team. A QB can only do so much and is only responsible for so much. The greatest QB in the world won't win much with a terrible O line, defense, and receivers. The worst QB in the NFL could probably do okay if he had the best O line, defense, and receivers to work with.

Brady is over rated largely because of his post season successes a decade ago (never mind he has choked since then). Flacco is likely to be over rated now coming off of an SB win and a post season where he performed well. Granted Flacco is good and probably better than many expected, but he's not as great as he will probably be billed as.
2/5/2013 9:10 AM
If THIS was your original argument regarding Brady being overrated, I would at least understand where you were coming from.
2/5/2013 9:28 AM
Posted by bistiza on 2/5/2013 8:24:00 AM (view original):
Most people have the habit of over rating QBs based upon post season success.

I'm not saying post season success doesn't matter at all, but it doesn't (and shouldn't) mean nearly as much as many people think in terms of rating how good the QB is at doing his job.

Yes, winning is part of his job, but it should not be forgotten that winning is also a function of an entire team. A QB can only do so much and is only responsible for so much. The greatest QB in the world won't win much with a terrible O line, defense, and receivers. The worst QB in the NFL could probably do okay if he had the best O line, defense, and receivers to work with.

Brady is over rated largely because of his post season successes a decade ago (never mind he has choked since then). Flacco is likely to be over rated now coming off of an SB win and a post season where he performed well. Granted Flacco is good and probably better than many expected, but he's not as great as he will probably be billed as.
Hahahaha!!!!!
2/5/2013 11:13 AM
Posted by bistiza on 2/5/2013 8:24:00 AM (view original):
Most people have the habit of over rating QBs based upon post season success.

I'm not saying post season success doesn't matter at all, but it doesn't (and shouldn't) mean nearly as much as many people think in terms of rating how good the QB is at doing his job.

Yes, winning is part of his job, but it should not be forgotten that winning is also a function of an entire team. A QB can only do so much and is only responsible for so much. The greatest QB in the world won't win much with a terrible O line, defense, and receivers. The worst QB in the NFL could probably do okay if he had the best O line, defense, and receivers to work with.

Brady is over rated largely because of his post season successes a decade ago (never mind he has choked since then). Flacco is likely to be over rated now coming off of an SB win and a post season where he performed well. Granted Flacco is good and probably better than many expected, but he's not as great as he will probably be billed as.
No QB is good enough to win without a decent O-line, defense, and receivers. No one is making that argument for Brady.

Relative other QBs, Brady is very, very good. If not the best in the league, among the top two or three.
2/5/2013 11:56 AM
If THIS was your original argument regarding Brady being overrated, I would at least understand where you were coming from.
This HAS been a large part of my argument the entire time. I'm not sure how you missed that since I've repeated the idea that Brady's wins, including especially in the Super Bowl and playoffs, are often used to justify how good he is and that is part of what makes him over rated.




2/5/2013 12:08 PM (edited)
I didn't miss it.  And I didn't really argue against it.  I argued against the idea that Brady was basically an average QB of a team where any decent QB would have won 6 or 7 Super Bowls with already.  And the idea that he had fantastic offensive weapons that carried him.  And that he isn't capable of consistently making great throws down the field, and that he's part of a system that would make any average QB look great.  Despite the statistical evidence that I presented, that you ignored, based on what you "saw."
2/5/2013 12:11 PM
It should also be noted that what is "seen" is seen by someone who thinks the Pats are undeserving of anything good, whose Super Bowl wins are tainted, and by someone who thinks that Brady is a particularly bad person, despite the fact that many many many more players do much worse than he does.  If you took yourself out of the situation, I'm confident you would think some bias was at play here in your thinking of Brady when it comes to football talent.
2/5/2013 12:31 PM
Even if you think that Flacco/Brady perform BETTER during the postseason, that (to some) defines greatness.  Raising your performance level in high-pressure situations is a quality that EVERY business looks for in their top personnel, not just sports.

That's why Bush and Obama are such utter failures.  When the pressure is on, they **** it up.  They're the Scott Norwoods of the presidency.  Or, for those even older, the Jackie Smiths of the presidency.
2/5/2013 2:23 PM
saying 'I am strong in my beliefs and that frustrates people' may help your own self esteem, but it does not mean you've frustrated anyone.......

Couple of points:

First, I don't need to help my own self esteem.

Second, and more importantly, the evidence strongly suggests some people on this board are incredibly frustrated in their attempts to argue with or debate me. When they have failed in any attempt to use logical debate techniques to argue - if they even tried to begin with - they've launched personal attacks and various manner of insults, which are classic indicators of frustration.

Put simply, you don't need to hurl insults if you can argue well, but its a bail-out for those who become frustrated.
I argued against the idea that Brady was basically an average QB of a team where any decent QB would have won 6 or 7 Super Bowls with already.

Too bad that's NOT a point I made.

I said the evidence suggests Brady is a slightly above average QB across his career. I also said any truly good QB in the same situations Brady has had would have won at least 5 Super Bowls by now and perhaps more.

Those things are quite different from what you say here.
And the idea that he had fantastic offensive weapons that carried him.

For the latter part of his career, he HAS had fantastic offensive weapons that carried him (until he has choked each year). Prior to that, he had players who worked well within the system - which is exactly what he is, a QB who does well within the system. Cassel was another.
And that he isn't capable of consistently making great throws down the field
He's only consistently capable when he's had great receivers, and the stats show that, i.e. I could throw up the ball and let Randy Moss go get it.
and that he's part of a system that would make any average QB look great.
Matt Cassel conclusively proves this to be true.
It should also be noted that what is "seen" is seen by someone who thinks the Pats are undeserving of anything good, whose Super Bowl wins are tainted,
The Super Bowl wins ARE tainted - at least one of them.
and by someone who thinks that Brady is a particularly bad person, despite the fact that many many many more players do much worse than he does.
YOU think other players do worse than Brady does. Stop pretending what you think is somehow more valid than what I think.
Even if you think that Flacco/Brady perform BETTER during the postseason, that (to some) defines greatness.
For Flacco, that might be true (might - he's had one great postseason, so let's not get carried away).

As for Brady, I don't think he  performs any better in the playoffs. I think he's a bit above average in the regular season and the same in the playoffs.

In fact in recent years he's choked away two Super Bowls and multiple trips to the postseason with teams that were supremely talented and probably should have won it all several time.
Raising your performance level in high-pressure situations is a quality that EVERY business looks for in their top personnel, not just sports.
True.

Keep this in mind: People giving Brady credit for raising his performance when the reality suggests he hasn't raised anything (and in fact chokes in many cases) is part of why he is so grossly over rated.
2/5/2013 3:17 PM
You seem to labor under the belief that only you possess the ability to have a strong opinion.....amazing as it may seem to you, many people can believe the exact opposite of you, yet be every bit as convinced they are correct


honestly, I don't care what your opinion is and I certainly have no desire to try and change that opinion (this has nothing to do with what I am sure you will think is my frustration over not being able to budge your olympic strength will)...its all yours and more power to you for having it


however, you belittle anyone that has a different opinion than you on this matter....


now, don't kid yourself....everything you do here is about stroking your own esteem....."I'm strong and you all can't handle it" "My opinion is right and that bothers you because you can't handle it".....you have a continuous need to put yourself and your thoughts above those of anyone else's and that clearly speaks to larger issues beneath the surface
2/5/2013 4:18 PM

I argued against the idea that Brady was basically an average QB of a team where any decent QB would have won 6 or 7 Super Bowls with already.

Too bad that's NOT a point I made. 

I said the evidence suggests Brady is a slightly above average QB across his career. I also said any truly good QB in the same situations Brady has had would have won at least 5 Super Bowls by now and perhaps more.

Those things are quite different from what you say here.

·         So what is “quite different?” I said “basically an average QB” and you said “slightly above average QB.”  I said “would have won 6 or 7 Super Bowls” and you said “at least 5 Super Bowls.”  Is this another case of you seeing what you want to see? Are you making up your own definition of “quite different”?

Re: the system – again, I don't think you have explained this fully.  It’s a system where teams try to create mismatches and confuse the defense, and is usually conservative and takes shots down the field when needed or when forced to.  (If I’m misquoting what you said, please help me understand it better) I’m telling you this is a system many teams try to run.  Why had Brady and BB (two overrated football minds, in your words) managed to do this so effectively, and other teams struggled so much? And please describe what qualities the players he had around him had, that helped him so much?

Averaging out Bledsoe’s last 2 seasons before Brady and the Pats won a Super Bowl gives him -  3638 yards, 18 TDs, 17 INTs.  If you insist on looking at the good year Cassel had with Moss and Welker, (the same weapons Brady set offensive records with) I’ll also insist you look at these years when Bledsoe, a 4 time Pro-Bowler and 27 and 28 year old at the time, struggled in New England.  If "the system didn't fit him" can you explain why a more conservative system, designed to help quarterbacks not screw up, did not work for Bledsoe? Please stop ignoring this. 

Along the same lines, are you using your own definition for “conclusively” when describing your situation with Cassel? When you’re using your own definitions, you have to let me know.

Re: Brady is a bad person – my point is that you, without being provoked, brought up the kind of person Brady is.  I WILL tell you, “conclusively”, that someone who electrocutes and kills dogs, that someone who cheats on his wife and has a love child, that someone who drives drunk and kills his friends, are people who have shown tendencies to be worse people than what Brady shows.  Yet you are the one who continues to argue that Brady is a bad person, and root against him, partially for this reason.  You can make jokes in the Marino thread, but you’ll bash Brady for a lesser wrong. 

And again, because you ignored/didn't see this point in my last post, I’ll post it again - “If you took yourself out of the situation (thinking Brady is a particularly bad person), I'm confident you would think some bias was at play here in your thinking of Brady when it comes to football talent."

2/5/2013 5:13 PM
Posted by edsortails on 2/5/2013 3:17:00 PM (view original):
You seem to labor under the belief that only you possess the ability to have a strong opinion.....amazing as it may seem to you, many people can believe the exact opposite of you, yet be every bit as convinced they are correct


honestly, I don't care what your opinion is and I certainly have no desire to try and change that opinion (this has nothing to do with what I am sure you will think is my frustration over not being able to budge your olympic strength will)...its all yours and more power to you for having it


however, you belittle anyone that has a different opinion than you on this matter....


now, don't kid yourself....everything you do here is about stroking your own esteem....."I'm strong and you all can't handle it" "My opinion is right and that bothers you because you can't handle it".....you have a continuous need to put yourself and your thoughts above those of anyone else's and that clearly speaks to larger issues beneath the surface
Ding ding ding...weiner!
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