All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/26/2013 10:22 AM
Posted by moranis on 1/25/2013 5:20:00 PM (view original):
Probably a little better than Brady's.

How good is Harrison really?  What I mean is that Troy Brown had by far a better year than Harrison did before Brady and Manning arrived on the scene.  Maybe Troy Brown was better than Marvin Harrison and Harrison was elevated to the HOF type level because of Manning, but was in actuality a worse WR than Brown.  Or maybe both were elevated.  I mean look at Welker in Miami before ever joining New England, i.e. a good player, but became great with Brady.  

How good was Harrison?  Harrison had Branch type #'s before Manning arrived.  You're talking about his rookie and 2nd season as well.

Troy Brown had 8 season before Brady and was pretty much average to well below average till 2000.  He had 1 good year before Brady. 

Seriously...just look at their stats before saying such crap.

www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00.htm




1/26/2013 10:22 AM
1/26/2013 11:31 AM
I know the stats, but the year before Brady, Troy Brown had significantly better stats than Harrison did before Manning.  That was my point. 
1/26/2013 5:31 PM (edited)
Posted by moranis on 1/26/2013 11:31:00 AM (view original):
I know the stats, but the year before Brady, Troy Brown had significantly better stats than Harrison did before Manning.  That was my point. 
You're talking about a 9 year vet with pro bowl qb (Bledsoe) vs a 1st and 2nd year player with a tard for a qb.
1/27/2013 10:32 AM
Jim Harbaugh is a tard.
1/28/2013 9:08 AM
Anyone who claims Brady is not one of the all time greats is either ignorant of the game of football, or has a secret anti-Brady agenda they are pushing through the selective use of stats....
See, I'm of the opposite opinion (sort of).

I think anyone who thinks Brady is "one of the all time greats" is either a big fan of Brady's who is contributing to the hype purposefully or is someone who has bought into said hype.

I think of  it as a Brady-worship cult because he's that over-rated. The wins and stats make him above average but NOT ANYWHERE NEAR the level he is purported to be at.

So if you think he is "one of the all time greats", you're either handing out the Brady worship kool-aid and/or you're guzzling it down from those who do. That's how I see it.
1/28/2013 9:49 AM
Posted by moranis on 1/27/2013 10:32:00 AM (view original):
Jim Harbaugh is a tard.
Yes.  He sucked as an NFL QB.
1/28/2013 9:52 AM
Posted by bistiza on 1/28/2013 9:08:00 AM (view original):
Anyone who claims Brady is not one of the all time greats is either ignorant of the game of football, or has a secret anti-Brady agenda they are pushing through the selective use of stats....
See, I'm of the opposite opinion (sort of).

I think anyone who thinks Brady is "one of the all time greats" is either a big fan of Brady's who is contributing to the hype purposefully or is someone who has bought into said hype.

I think of  it as a Brady-worship cult because he's that over-rated. The wins and stats make him above average but NOT ANYWHERE NEAR the level he is purported to be at.

So if you think he is "one of the all time greats", you're either handing out the Brady worship kool-aid and/or you're guzzling it down from those who do. That's how I see it.
Hahaha!

You are a fool. 

The wins and stats make him slightly above average....ahahah!!  

Dude, you clearly no jack **** about NFL.  
1/28/2013 9:56 AM
Posted by bistiza on 1/28/2013 9:08:00 AM (view original):
Anyone who claims Brady is not one of the all time greats is either ignorant of the game of football, or has a secret anti-Brady agenda they are pushing through the selective use of stats....
See, I'm of the opposite opinion (sort of).

I think anyone who thinks Brady is "one of the all time greats" is either a big fan of Brady's who is contributing to the hype purposefully or is someone who has bought into said hype.

I think of  it as a Brady-worship cult because he's that over-rated. The wins and stats make him above average but NOT ANYWHERE NEAR the level he is purported to be at.

So if you think he is "one of the all time greats", you're either handing out the Brady worship kool-aid and/or you're guzzling it down from those who do. That's how I see it.
It's not so much kool-aid I'm giving out as much as facts about his accomplishments.  You've given a misguided opinion with what you thought were facts that are actually inaccurate.

Still waiting on you to answer a question I asked Friday.  And for you to watch the video of Tom Brady throwing accurate passes for 8 minutes.

What team do you root for, just out of curiosity ?
1/28/2013 10:19 AM
The wins and stats make him slightly above average....ahahah!! 

The wins and stats are over-hyped because they come under suspect circumstances.

The wins were generated as a result of being on talented TEAMS, including offensive lines that rarely let him get touched, defenses which were not only talented but were proven to have cheated, and receivers who are skilled at getting open and/or catching the ball, especially later in his career.

The stats are helped by a talented team but also are inflated by Brady's uber-conservative approach. You won't throw many INTs if you don't take many chances, but sometimes those chances are necessary, and the truly great QBs not only take but make those throws in the clutch. You also tend to have super high completion percentages when you throw a lot of screens, checkdowns, and other short throws.

To sum up: The wins are a product of playing on a superior team that would have won with or without him. The stats are inflated by a conservative approach and throwing short stuff.

If you replaced Brady with Peyton Manning on those NE teams, they'd have probably won 8 Super Bowls by now. If you allow Manning to throw uber-conservative like Brady by not trying for long throws or putting stuff into tight windows even though he can and throwing more short stuff, his INTs probably drop quite a bit and he has a completion percentage of 75 or something ridiculous.

You say I don't know anything about football, but you're the one who refuses to look deeper beyond the wins and the stats. If you'd do that, you'd see they are the product of a team and a system rather than the QB who gets all the credit and is therefore over-rated.
1/28/2013 11:01 AM
Re: the o-line - it's been discussed that Brady had a line that was average to below average for 2 of his Super Bowl runs.  He also is excellent at making decisions and in getting rid of the ball within a few seconds, so he generally doesn't need a great o-line.

I gave you video evidence of Brady making accurate passes, often in very tight windows for 8 minutes.  Just because you refuse to acknowledge that it exists doesn't mean it's not there.

And I just want to make sure we're on the same page with your argument - Brady has great numbers because he's conservative?  And if Manning was in a more conservative, less-talented offense, he would have put up better numbers than he did with a more aggressive, more talented offense?  I'm not following, you have to explain this further.
1/28/2013 11:11 AM
Brady's INTs are artificially held down by his refusal to throw into tight windows because he is aware of his glaring lack of ability to get it done as consistently as a great NFL QB should be able to get it done.

Also contributing to his INTs being held down but the PRIMARY reason his completion percentage is artificially high is because of the screens, checkdowns, and other short throws that are done with the Patriots far more often than with other teams.

My point is that Manning would have better numbers if he did the same things. His INTs would drop since he wouldn't be putting the ball into tighter windows like he usually does, and his completion percentage would rise because it would be easier to complete shorter passes.

I never said anything about the offense itself being conservative or less talented, because I don't believe that's the case. I simply think Brady's throws are conservative.
1/28/2013 11:32 AM
I've shown you evidence of Brady throwing the ball into tight windows.  He doesn't "refuse to."

What evidence do you have that the Pats offense was just as talented as the Colts offense during that time period?  I've presented evidence to the contrary.  

Also, I didn't ask you what Manning's numbers would be if he acted like Brady, I asked you what they would be if he were on the Pats at that time.

And if Manning were better by being "ultra-conservative like Brady" then why isn't he ultra-conservative?

1/28/2013 12:34 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/28/2013 11:11:00 AM (view original):
Brady's INTs are artificially held down by his refusal to throw into tight windows because he is aware of his glaring lack of ability to get it done as consistently as a great NFL QB should be able to get it done.

Also contributing to his INTs being held down but the PRIMARY reason his completion percentage is artificially high is because of the screens, checkdowns, and other short throws that are done with the Patriots far more often than with other teams.

My point is that Manning would have better numbers if he did the same things. His INTs would drop since he wouldn't be putting the ball into tighter windows like he usually does, and his completion percentage would rise because it would be easier to complete shorter passes.

I never said anything about the offense itself being conservative or less talented, because I don't believe that's the case. I simply think Brady's throws are conservative.
Refuses to throw into tight windows?!?!?!  Hahaha!  So, Brady has monster stats without forcing a ball into tight spaces.  I'd say that makes him a better QB.  He doesn't cause as many turnovers that hurts his team and still have the other stats.

Once again, you prove yourself to not know what you are saying.

Case closed.
1/28/2013 12:36 PM
Posted by 05nomar05 on 1/24/2013 10:11:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bistiza on 1/23/2013 3:13:00 PM (view original):
honestly, you seem to be convinced that 'elite' doesn't exist...so going with that thinking, OK he's not elite
No, elite very much does exist. There are several QBs I would consider elite in the NFL right now, including Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, and Drew Brees among possible others.

However, the gap between those guys and Brady is HUGE. In fact, if we include Brady in that group, there are about ten other guys who are better than him that should be there too.

Brady is above average when he's at his best but doesn't make plays anywhere near the level of the guys I just mentioned.
however, whether the talent around him carried him or he is the luckiest human on the planet, his numbers at QB dwarf nearly every QB to play in his era....which locks him up a spot in Canton whether you like him or not

He's been carried into the HOF on the backs of team mates and he doesn't deserve it. That's the biggest among MANY reasons why he's the most over rated player in NFL history.
So now their coaching leads to wins? You told me BB was overrated.

The two are completely separate statements.

The first one still stands - Belicheat IS over rated. If he was as good as his hype, he'd have won SBs in Cleveland, and he didn't.

The second one was merely me responding to someone else's assertion that coaching wins them games and was in no way me making my own statement.
I showed you visual evidence of Brady fitting the ball down the field into tight spaces.  8 minutes worth.  Everyone is not always wide open.

I didn't watch it, so I have no idea what you showed. If I get a chance later I may view it, but I make no promises.
You still haven't shown me the weapons that carried Brady to 3 Super Bowl wins. 
The defense is one weapon. The offensive line is another. Receivers who play well within the system is a third. I'll stick with those three for now.
This reply just shows your bitterness towards the Pats.  Which is why you are saying Brady sucks and BB can't coach.  

Burnsy, i have no clue why you are even responding to this nitwit.  He clearly doesn't want a logical argument.  I mean, he even stated that he didn't watch a single second of the video you posted.




These are tight windows...fyi.
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