All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/24/2013 10:31 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/24/2013 10:14:00 AM (view original):
I was talking about Manning being better than Brady but way to be overly defensive.

Smart coaches aren't very smart when their players suck.   But, with NE, it seems that BB, who I don't like at all, has gotten a lot of production from players who weren't highly thought of coming out of college.    Did he need Brady to be his triggerman?   I'd say he did.   Bledsoe wasn't a slug but he seemed more like a "force it downfield" kind of guy.
You were arguing that Brady was slightly above-average for the first half of his career, so I didn't know you were only saying he was only worse than Manning.

One could argue that Bledsoe's least successful years were his last 2 (full seasons) with New England.  Take that any way you want to.

Are you saying New England's players sucked?  Because you were telling me earlier they didn't.

I'd argue the Bill, who was a great defensive coach before he was a head coach, got the most out of defensive guys who weren't thought highly of in other places.  You'll argue he did the same was Brady, and I'll only agree with that somewhat.  Every great QB needs a solid relationship with his coach, and I think Brady and Bill have that.  I think that also speaks to Brady as a player, as Bill couldn't do that with Beldsoe or Testaverde.
1/24/2013 10:36 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/24/2013 10:23:00 AM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 1/24/2013 10:06:00 AM (view original):
I'm just curious, does anyone here think that Brady isn't in the top 5 or 10 QBs of all time?

I only go to top 10 because some people always trot out names like Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, and Johnny U when these types of discussions start.
I think an argument can me made that he's not Top 5.  I'll take Marino, Manning, probably Young and Montana.  And if you like any of the older guys, he slips out.
I love that people say Brady is a system QB and say, look what Cassel did the year Brady went out.  Well, look what Young did right after Montana.  Are Young and Montana overrated?  System QB's?

Please.  Brady is clearly a top 5 with the potential to be the top QB if his stats continue for a few more years at this level and he wins another SB.  He has to win a 4th SB to be considered the best though.

Me personally, I wouldn't take any other QB....but i'm a bias homer.
1/24/2013 10:43 AM
Unless you're arguing that the 49ers ran the exact same system for 20 years, and didn't run it before, and stopped running it after, the argument of "system QB" doesn't work.  They were a losing franchise until Montana stepped in.  They were a winning franchise until Young left.  

Personally, I think Young is better than Montana, but he Montana has the rings.
1/24/2013 11:12 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/24/2013 10:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/24/2013 10:14:00 AM (view original):
I was talking about Manning being better than Brady but way to be overly defensive.

Smart coaches aren't very smart when their players suck.   But, with NE, it seems that BB, who I don't like at all, has gotten a lot of production from players who weren't highly thought of coming out of college.    Did he need Brady to be his triggerman?   I'd say he did.   Bledsoe wasn't a slug but he seemed more like a "force it downfield" kind of guy.
You were arguing that Brady was slightly above-average for the first half of his career, so I didn't know you were only saying he was only worse than Manning.

One could argue that Bledsoe's least successful years were his last 2 (full seasons) with New England.  Take that any way you want to.

Are you saying New England's players sucked?  Because you were telling me earlier they didn't.

I'd argue the Bill, who was a great defensive coach before he was a head coach, got the most out of defensive guys who weren't thought highly of in other places.  You'll argue he did the same was Brady, and I'll only agree with that somewhat.  Every great QB needs a solid relationship with his coach, and I think Brady and Bill have that.  I think that also speaks to Brady as a player, as Bill couldn't do that with Beldsoe or Testaverde.
In their overall careers, I don't know that Manning is better than Brady.    Brady was slightly above average until 2007.

I'm saying NE players weren't highly thought of coming out of college.   You know, like Colston, Moore and Thomas in NO.

I don't know if Brady or BB are anything like they are now without the other.    Can't imagine anyone knows that.
1/24/2013 11:29 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/24/2013 10:44:00 AM (view original):
Unless you're arguing that the 49ers ran the exact same system for 20 years, and didn't run it before, and stopped running it after, the argument of "system QB" doesn't work.  They were a losing franchise until Montana stepped in.  They were a winning franchise until Young left.  

Personally, I think Young is better than Montana, but he Montana has the rings.

As the token 49er fan around here, I just gotta say... "Wow".

My top five are: Montana, Graham, Elway, Unitas, Brady...

In the next group are: Manning, Young, Marino

1/24/2013 11:50 AM
Posted by toddcommish on 1/24/2013 11:29:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/24/2013 10:44:00 AM (view original):
Unless you're arguing that the 49ers ran the exact same system for 20 years, and didn't run it before, and stopped running it after, the argument of "system QB" doesn't work.  They were a losing franchise until Montana stepped in.  They were a winning franchise until Young left.  

Personally, I think Young is better than Montana, but he Montana has the rings.

As the token 49er fan around here, I just gotta say... "Wow".

My top five are: Montana, Graham, Elway, Unitas, Brady...

In the next group are: Manning, Young, Marino

Yea I know I'm in the minority when I say that.  If Young got past GB a couple more times though, maybe you'd agree with me.

And I always felt Elway was a touch overhyped, personally.
1/24/2013 11:51 AM
Posted by toddcommish on 1/24/2013 11:29:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/24/2013 10:44:00 AM (view original):
Unless you're arguing that the 49ers ran the exact same system for 20 years, and didn't run it before, and stopped running it after, the argument of "system QB" doesn't work.  They were a losing franchise until Montana stepped in.  They were a winning franchise until Young left.  

Personally, I think Young is better than Montana, but he Montana has the rings.

As the token 49er fan around here, I just gotta say... "Wow".

My top five are: Montana, Graham, Elway, Unitas, Brady...

In the next group are: Manning, Young, Marino

ding ding ding!

Young had more athletic talent.  Montana was a better QB. 
1/24/2013 11:57 AM
It's not an argument I feel like having, but I'll just say this one last thing.  Take a look here - 

www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm

Monster numbers, only played in his 30s.  I'd be curious what Niners fans would think if he managed to win even 1 more Super Bowl, or if he started in his mid-20s.  And yes, I recognize that you can't assume he'd play until his late 30s had he played more in his 20s.


1/24/2013 12:16 PM

I'm not saying he should have been viewed as better than Montana, but let's face it, Young never had a chance in that comparison.  That he is viewed as highly as he is is actually pretty incredible, IMO.

1/24/2013 1:01 PM
Young had MUCH better "tools" around him.  He had Jerry Rice in his prime, Ricky Watters in his prime, John Taylor, Garrison Hearst, and Brent Jones.

Montana didn't get Rice until he had already won two Super Bowls.
1/24/2013 1:05 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/24/2013 11:58:00 AM (view original):
It's not an argument I feel like having, but I'll just say this one last thing.  Take a look here - 

www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm

Monster numbers, only played in his 30s.  I'd be curious what Niners fans would think if he managed to win even 1 more Super Bowl, or if he started in his mid-20s.  And yes, I recognize that you can't assume he'd play until his late 30s had he played more in his 20s.


Young suffered because he had to play against Green Bay (Favre in his glory) and Dallas (Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, et al) and he only ran that gauntlet ONCE.   Think of him like Peyton Manning with running skills.
1/24/2013 1:53 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 1/24/2013 1:01:00 PM (view original):
Young had MUCH better "tools" around him.  He had Jerry Rice in his prime, Ricky Watters in his prime, John Taylor, Garrison Hearst, and Brent Jones.

Montana didn't get Rice until he had already won two Super Bowls.
Taylor had 2 big years, one with Montana, one with Young.  Montana got as much of Rice's prime as Young did.  As for the RB, Montana did have a guy named Roger Craig...  (also, Garrison Hearst?  Please - you could easily argue that Young and the Niner offense made him since he did nothing outside of SF)

Young suffers primarily because A) he sat behind Montana for so long, B) Dallas became a monster right as he finally got the ball, C) free agency and the salary cap came in and made it harder to keep teams together.
1/24/2013 2:00 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 1/24/2013 1:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/24/2013 11:58:00 AM (view original):
It's not an argument I feel like having, but I'll just say this one last thing.  Take a look here - 

www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm

Monster numbers, only played in his 30s.  I'd be curious what Niners fans would think if he managed to win even 1 more Super Bowl, or if he started in his mid-20s.  And yes, I recognize that you can't assume he'd play until his late 30s had he played more in his 20s.


Young suffered because he had to play against Green Bay (Favre in his glory) and Dallas (Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, et al) and he only ran that gauntlet ONCE.   Think of him like Peyton Manning with running skills.
He only had half of a career, and it was the back half.  You don't think he would have had a couple more rings if for some reason he had taken over for Montana in say, '87?

I'm not arguing that he was better than Montana, that's just a completely unwinnable position given how things played out, but I think it's closer than most people would give him credit for.
1/24/2013 2:37 PM
Posted by AlCheez on 1/24/2013 1:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 1/24/2013 1:01:00 PM (view original):
Young had MUCH better "tools" around him.  He had Jerry Rice in his prime, Ricky Watters in his prime, John Taylor, Garrison Hearst, and Brent Jones.

Montana didn't get Rice until he had already won two Super Bowls.
Taylor had 2 big years, one with Montana, one with Young.  Montana got as much of Rice's prime as Young did.  As for the RB, Montana did have a guy named Roger Craig...  (also, Garrison Hearst?  Please - you could easily argue that Young and the Niner offense made him since he did nothing outside of SF)

Young suffers primarily because A) he sat behind Montana for so long, B) Dallas became a monster right as he finally got the ball, C) free agency and the salary cap came in and made it harder to keep teams together.

Roger Craig was a fullback in front of Wendell Tyler in 1984 and was the feature back for 88/89 only, and I would argue that Ricky Watters was just as good as a tailback.  [Plus, I'll never forgive Craig for fumbling away the threepeat in 1990].  Garrison Hearst had a 1000 yard season for Arizona, and averaged around 1200 yards for four consecutive (for him) seasons.

John Taylor has comparable career numbers to Lynn Swann, and didn't come along until 88/89.  Montana led the 49ers to SB victories in 1982/1985.  No Rice.  No Taylor.  No Hearst.  No Watters.   Young had all of them, and only got it done once.

Montana won a Super Bowl with Ricky Patton as his #1 running back.  RICKY ******* PATTON!  EARL COOPER!  LENVIL ELLIOTT!   WALT EASLEY!  You won't find ANY team in Super Bowl history with worse running backs.   

1/25/2013 9:38 AM
Burnsy, i have no clue why you are even responding to this nitwit.  He clearly doesn't want a logical argument.  I mean, he even stated that he didn't watch a single second of the video you posted.

I didn't watch the video because I don't have time to watch it when I'm on a computer that actually has the capability of watching it.
No way Brady is top five. To say there are 12 or 13 qb's playing today that are better than him is Swampcrazy.

There is a post somewhere earlier in this thread where I listed the QBs I think are at least equal with Brady if not better overall.  Some of them there is no question they are better than him, the others can be questioned but I think while he is good at some things, they are good enough and exceed him in other areas.
Are Young and Montana overrated?  System QB's?

Yes, Montana is over rated and a system QB. He's not nearly as over rated as Brady, but he is absolutely over rated by most people.

As for Young, he made plays with his arms and his legs on a regular basis that demonstrated he was more than just a system QB.  I'd say Young is better than Montana even though he only has one ring from starting. 

The number of SB wins isn't the only measure of a QB - and I'd argue that while it means something, how much the number of SBs a TEAM wins with a QB under center is an over rated measure of how great the QB actually is. Trent Dilfer and Young both have one ring while starting - Young is far superior. Dan Marino has zero rings and only one SB appearance (as a rookie) - he was still a phenomenal QB, better than many guys who have SB rings.
Please.  Brady is clearly a top 5 with the potential to be the top QB if his stats continue for a few more years at this level and he wins another SB.  He has to win a 4th SB to be considered the best though.
He's not even top five right now in the NFL. Top ten right now, maybe, depending upon what you value in a QB.

All time he's not even worth mentioning in the top 20. There are just too many guys who were far away better than him.
My top five are: Montana, Graham, Elway, Unitas, Brady...In the next group are: Manning, Young, Marino
Ladies and gentlemen, yet another example of how Brady is EXTREMELY OVER RATED.

There is no way he holds a candle to any of those guys, including the ones you put "in the next group". They are all so much better than him it is laughable to even mention him among them as far as I'm concerned.
Think of him like Peyton Manning with running skills.
I'd say Manning is better than Young because of his amazing ability to change plays at the line of scrimmage, but I'd agree Young is close to what you say here. I've always said he is better than Montana but Montana gets the credit for more rings. It's funny to me people compare Montana to Brady and I think to myself "yeah, SB wins make them both over rated."
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