All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/17/2013 11:43 AM
I compared them earlier to Peyton's career numbers.  They aren't far off.

It's also hard to win Super Bowls without being very good.  Dilfer had arguably the best defense in league history.  And he didn't win 3.
1/17/2013 11:54 AM
I don't think anyone (except biz, apparently) is saying that Brady isn't very good.  I'd certainly say he's elite.  But the narrative in his favor (not just yours in this argument) has been constructed to be a bit over the top.  
1/17/2013 12:03 PM
I'd argue he's top 3 with Manning and Rodgers.  The reason this started is because I got worked up when biz called him overrated, and someone disagreed with the point I made that he actually didn't have many very good weapons for a while, the opposite of what biz argued.  And now we're here.
1/17/2013 12:13 PM
I'd place him there as well.  And I certainly don't disagree that his weapons were not as good as some of these guys early in his career, I just don't think the overall narrative that he "did more with less" is particularly good because it stays hyper-focused on one phase of the game in a team game.  And it is kind of amusing to realize if he'd only had the part of his career where he's had the offensive weapons around him, he'd be dogged with questions of whether he can win the big one.
1/17/2013 12:48 PM
That's interesting. Eli would be the clutch guy, and Brady would be the choker. Although, Brady's last drive in 2007 got him a TD and the lead. But he didn't play as well in that game as he had all season.
1/17/2013 12:57 PM
Well, I never disputed Brady's value at all.    I don't put Rodgers in the argument because he wasn't around when Manning/Brady got started.     They're 1/2 or 2/1.    I simply countered that while Manning had better playmakers, Brady had an innovative coach.   Then we went down the path of all NE players who put up good numbers were "crap to average" while New Orleans players with Brees were superstars despite both groups being evaluated as borderline players by the people who are paid to make the evaluations.
1/17/2013 1:14 PM
And it is kind of amusing to realize if he'd only had the part of his career where he's had the offensive weapons around him, he'd be dogged with questions of whether he can win the big one.

A very interesting point, indeed. His talented team carries him to not just one but three SB wins and suddenly he's "elite", but no one pays attention to the two huge losses in SBs where he actually had BETTER teams with MORE talent and he just couldn't get it done.
That's interesting. Eli would be the clutch guy, and Brady would be the choker.

Wait. Eli "would be" the clutch guy, and Brady "would be" the choker?

Take out the "would be" and replace it with "is" and you'll have an accurate statement.

Since 2007 Eli has two rings and Brady has ZERO. Twice Eli came through and Brady FAILED to do so for his team.

Everyone talks about how "lucky" the Eli pass to Tyree was, but the fact remains Eli was the one who orchestrated an escape from three defenders to be able to throw that ball. If that was Brady instead of Eli, he goes down in a heap and whines and cries about it and his team loses.

For now let's stop living in the past and cut the ridiculously hyped praise for Brady because his team carried him to three Super Bowl wins nearly a decade ago. I guess we'll have to revisit this discussion if this year's uber-talented squad drags their lame QB kicking and screaming to another SB win, but for now, Brady has been a failure for many years and the success of his team before that doesn't overcome his recent failures.


1/17/2013 1:18 PM
Never called any weapon on the Saints a superstar, but yes, I thnk Colston has the talent at WR that Brady didn't have pre-Moss/Welker, and Pierre Thomas is very good, despite where he was drafted. Stats also back that up (re:Thomas).
1/17/2013 1:50 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/17/2013 10:58:00 AM (view original):
You said he's constantly had an amazing offensive line, and I think you're overhyping that. 

In all the years Brady has played for NE going back to 2003, the team never ranked worse than 9th in the league in sacks per game allowed.  Brady gets sacked an average of less than 2 times per game in every single year he's played back to 2003.
You said he had fantastic weapons his whole career, but you haven't named them in the period where he was part of 3 Super Bowl winning teams, and putting up great offensive numbers.
The defense won the first Super Bowl and he got the hype and the MVP and deserved neither (the team didn't deserve to win either what with the cheating and all, but that's another point). The defense wasn't shabby the other years, either.

The offensive line was always good as I've already said.

Brady has simply never made any plays another decent QB couldn't have made in the same exact situation.


Never ranked less than 9th....couldn't that be attributed to Brady as well?  You know, the QB might have the sense that someone is near him and he moves the pocket and gets rid of the ball.

Clown.
1/17/2013 1:55 PM
Posted by AlCheez on 1/17/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Big dropoff in 2008, wonder what happened that year...
Ranked 28th.  Interesting.  Guess the O-line took the year off too.
1/17/2013 2:05 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/17/2013 1:14:00 PM (view original):
And it is kind of amusing to realize if he'd only had the part of his career where he's had the offensive weapons around him, he'd be dogged with questions of whether he can win the big one.

A very interesting point, indeed. His talented team carries him to not just one but three SB wins and suddenly he's "elite", but no one pays attention to the two huge losses in SBs where he actually had BETTER teams with MORE talent and he just couldn't get it done.
That's interesting. Eli would be the clutch guy, and Brady would be the choker.

Wait. Eli "would be" the clutch guy, and Brady "would be" the choker?

Take out the "would be" and replace it with "is" and you'll have an accurate statement.

Since 2007 Eli has two rings and Brady has ZERO. Twice Eli came through and Brady FAILED to do so for his team.

Everyone talks about how "lucky" the Eli pass to Tyree was, but the fact remains Eli was the one who orchestrated an escape from three defenders to be able to throw that ball. If that was Brady instead of Eli, he goes down in a heap and whines and cries about it and his team loses.

For now let's stop living in the past and cut the ridiculously hyped praise for Brady because his team carried him to three Super Bowl wins nearly a decade ago. I guess we'll have to revisit this discussion if this year's uber-talented squad drags their lame QB kicking and screaming to another SB win, but for now, Brady has been a failure for many years and the success of his team before that doesn't overcome his recent failures.


There was holding on that play.  It's beyond me that it wasn't called though.

Still was great effort by Eli and an amazing catch by Tyree.
1/17/2013 2:20 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/17/2013 1:14:00 PM (view original):
And it is kind of amusing to realize if he'd only had the part of his career where he's had the offensive weapons around him, he'd be dogged with questions of whether he can win the big one.

A very interesting point, indeed. His talented team carries him to not just one but three SB wins and suddenly he's "elite", but no one pays attention to the two huge losses in SBs where he actually had BETTER teams with MORE talent and he just couldn't get it done.
That's interesting. Eli would be the clutch guy, and Brady would be the choker.

Wait. Eli "would be" the clutch guy, and Brady "would be" the choker?

Take out the "would be" and replace it with "is" and you'll have an accurate statement.

Since 2007 Eli has two rings and Brady has ZERO. Twice Eli came through and Brady FAILED to do so for his team.

Everyone talks about how "lucky" the Eli pass to Tyree was, but the fact remains Eli was the one who orchestrated an escape from three defenders to be able to throw that ball. If that was Brady instead of Eli, he goes down in a heap and whines and cries about it and his team loses.

For now let's stop living in the past and cut the ridiculously hyped praise for Brady because his team carried him to three Super Bowl wins nearly a decade ago. I guess we'll have to revisit this discussion if this year's uber-talented squad drags their lame QB kicking and screaming to another SB win, but for now, Brady has been a failure for many years and the success of his team before that doesn't overcome his recent failures.


Still haven't told me how Brady was carried for 3 Super Bowl wins.  His o-line was poor to average for his first 2 wins.  Even worse than I thought.  Or do you just want to ignore pre-2007?
1/17/2013 2:44 PM
It all boils down to this.  biz is the only one that says Brady sucks and is overrated.  Dismiss everyone in the NFL that says otherwise.  All former teammates, rivals, fellow QB's, current and former coaches in the league, current and former GM's....they are all wrong.  

The almighty Biz knows something that we all do not know.  It was all the offensive line and defense that carried Brady since day one.
1/17/2013 3:16 PM
There was holding on that play.  It's beyond me that it wasn't called though.

There's holding on every other play in the NFL. That's why the referees have to determine those things.
Dismiss everyone in the NFL that says otherwise.  All former teammates, rivals, fellow QB's, current and former coaches in the league, current and former GM's....they are all wrong. 
All the people you mention are either those who create the hype or buy into it.  They've all got their reasons for the Brady-worship, and even the ones who want to disagree don't because of the potential for backlash.

Brady is like a deity and if you watch the NFL and you don't already believe then you will be preached at until you do and criticized if you stand up against it.

BY THE WAY...

I'm not the only person who says these things. Here is an article which expresses several of the same sentiments I have. And here   is another article on the same site but by a different author who analyzes a variety of statistics and comes to the same conclusion as the first - that Brady is over rated.

In a poll  conducted by Sporting News of NFL players, Brady WAS named - twice - as being thought of as the most over rated player in the NFL. While he's no Tim Tebow, that still shows that not all NFL players are drinking the Brady flavored Kool Aid. Similarly, Brady was ranked as the Number 9 most over rated player in a Sports Illustrated poll of NFL players. Here  is the Boston Globe confirming the report on Brady's rank in the Sports' Ilustrated poll.







1/17/2013 4:00 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/17/2013 3:16:00 PM (view original):
There was holding on that play.  It's beyond me that it wasn't called though.

There's holding on every other play in the NFL. That's why the referees have to determine those things.
Dismiss everyone in the NFL that says otherwise.  All former teammates, rivals, fellow QB's, current and former coaches in the league, current and former GM's....they are all wrong. 
All the people you mention are either those who create the hype or buy into it.  They've all got their reasons for the Brady-worship, and even the ones who want to disagree don't because of the potential for backlash.

Brady is like a deity and if you watch the NFL and you don't already believe then you will be preached at until you do and criticized if you stand up against it.

BY THE WAY...

I'm not the only person who says these things. Here is an article which expresses several of the same sentiments I have. And here   is another article on the same site but by a different author who analyzes a variety of statistics and comes to the same conclusion as the first - that Brady is over rated.

In a poll  conducted by Sporting News of NFL players, Brady WAS named - twice - as being thought of as the most over rated player in the NFL. While he's no Tim Tebow, that still shows that not all NFL players are drinking the Brady flavored Kool Aid. Similarly, Brady was ranked as the Number 9 most over rated player in a Sports Illustrated poll of NFL players. Here  is the Boston Globe confirming the report on Brady's rank in the Sports' Ilustrated poll.







That poll  conducted by "Sporting News" is a joke.  It's 2 guys that said he was the most overrated player in the NFL.  It's more than likely 2 guys that Brady has dominated (Suggs and probably that other idiot James Harrison).

Wow...Bleacher Report thinks Brady is overrated.  It must be so!
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