Swamp, you dont want to accept the fact that people hundreds of times smarter then you (and me) have proven scientifically without any doubt that humans are affecting the climate in very dire ways.  People like you will only accept that there is a problem when your home is 5 feet below water.  You want to be guilt free whilst you eat your Tyson raised chickens.  I choose not to live like the proverbial ostrich with his melon in the sand.  I actually listen to what scientists have to say (the vast majority) and actually believe what my eyes are telling me.

Yes, its true that the Earth has always (and always will) have natural heating up and cooling down periods.  But never in the history of time has the Earth warmed up even a fraction as fast as it is right now.  This is proven fact.  Also take a look at the major storms we have been experiencing lately... every year its getting worse.  What was considered a 100 year storm 100 years ago is now considered a yearly storm.  Hurricanes even in the 70s only came a few times a year or even less.  Now you get that many in the first couple months.  Droughts, crazy cold winters in northern Europe, insane monsoons in Asia.  All of these things are rapidly growing in frequency and severity every single year for decades now.  But you go ahead Swamp, dont believe it.  Be part of the problem.

whats he supposed to do about it if he does believe it

not ride manatees?

Are you saying we should conquer the world, so we can then impose the laws we need to save the planet, like restricing carbon emissions?    Because I think we'll have a hard time convincing other countries to go back to the dark ages with us.      Except for those countries that haven't gotten to the dark ages yet.
Or maybe this planet was made just for manatees, and the rise in the oceans is the plan all along.

so, swamp..by your logic, I should go up to my smaller, weaker neighbor and take his classic Corvette, because I am stronger than him, and I want it?

Posted by wylie715 on 11/30/2012 1:38:00 AM (view original):
so, swamp..by your logic, I should go up to my smaller, weaker neighbor and take his classic Corvette, because I am stronger than him, and I want it?

Of course not. We are all the same species and have the same mental capacity and have s system of laws to govern our actions.

The fact that you think attacking a human is the same as wearing fur or eating frois gras proves that we have lost sight of our natural place in the world.

When did I say we should "conquer" the world?  That is you right wingnuts that think that way.  I say we live WITH the Earth.  We wouldnt be here if it wasnt for her.And it will be around long after we all die away.  Which if it were strictly up to you right wingnuts it would happen a whole lot sooner then it should.

And as for the dark ages thing, there is no need for us to live in the dark ages to fix or at least to start to fix the damage that we have caused so far.  That is yet another problem with you masters of scare mongering.  You like to say that if we were to live the way environmentalists want us to live we would all be carrying tools no more complicated then stone axes.  I am sure there is a tiny minority of enviros that want that, but none of the enviros Ive ever known ever wished for that.  The changes that I advocate for can be accomplished with next to no pain.  And if you compare it to the pain that we all will be feeling when the climate does crap out on us it is insignificant.  But I am under no delusions, I dont think that people are going to make significant changes in their day to day lives.  We are boned.

Posted by swamphawk22 on 11/30/2012 1:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 11/30/2012 1:38:00 AM (view original):
so, swamp..by your logic, I should go up to my smaller, weaker neighbor and take his classic Corvette, because I am stronger than him, and I want it?

Of course not. We are all the same species and have the same mental capacity and have s system of laws to govern our actions.

The fact that you think attacking a human is the same as wearing fur or eating frois gras proves that we have lost sight of our natural place in the world.

Yah we are conquerors!

Posted by swamphawk22 on 11/30/2012 1:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 11/30/2012 1:38:00 AM (view original):
so, swamp..by your logic, I should go up to my smaller, weaker neighbor and take his classic Corvette, because I am stronger than him, and I want it?

Of course not. We are all the same species and have the same mental capacity and have s system of laws to govern our actions.

The fact that you think attacking a human is the same as wearing fur or eating frois gras proves that we have lost sight of our natural place in the world.

you are lying Swamp...that is PRECISELY the argument you used in justifying the European conquest of the Americas.

Apples and oranges.

We have a set of mutually agreed upon laws based on societal norms that we all agree to follow in a free society to prevent anarchy.

Since many nations in the world are based on radically different ideas about what right and wrong means it isnt possible to create real international laws. We have some guidelines, but nothing solid. And several hundred years ago we had almost no laws covering international law.

I treat the indian nations of America as I would treat any nation in Europe. Stand tall and defend yourself or perish. Being of Polish ancestory I understand that your nation may be absorbed,dissolved or split up.

Posted by greeny9 on 11/29/2012 10:22:00 PM (view original):
Swamp, you dont want to accept the fact that people hundreds of times smarter then you (and me) have proven scientifically without any doubt that humans are affecting the climate in very dire ways.  People like you will only accept that there is a problem when your home is 5 feet below water.  You want to be guilt free whilst you eat your Tyson raised chickens.  I choose not to live like the proverbial ostrich with his melon in the sand.  I actually listen to what scientists have to say (the vast majority) and actually believe what my eyes are telling me.

Yes, its true that the Earth has always (and always will) have natural heating up and cooling down periods.  But never in the history of time has the Earth warmed up even a fraction as fast as it is right now.  This is proven fact.  Also take a look at the major storms we have been experiencing lately... every year its getting worse.  What was considered a 100 year storm 100 years ago is now considered a yearly storm.  Hurricanes even in the 70s only came a few times a year or even less.  Now you get that many in the first couple months.  Droughts, crazy cold winters in northern Europe, insane monsoons in Asia.  All of these things are rapidly growing in frequency and severity every single year for decades now.  But you go ahead Swamp, dont believe it.  Be part of the problem.

There is a lot of this that is not, strictly speaking, true.  Or right.  The liberals managed to trot out a group of scientists willing to state unequivocally that Global Warming is an immediate and serious threat, whereas the majority of the scientific population isn't actually willing to say with absolute certainty that the human influence has had any meaningful impact on climate change whatsoever.  Most scientists would be willing to say that we PROBABLY have caused some amount of warming, but that it's difficult to pinpoint exactly how much the warming trend has to do with human activity.  And most would say that it's smartest to attempt to counteract potential avenues of human influence on the climate.  But the blanket statement that "people hundreds of times smarter then you (and me) have proven scientifically without any doubt that humans are affecting the climate in very dire ways" is absolutely, positively, 100% false.  It is a MASSIVE exaggeration.  In fact, the paper in Nature which formed a large part of the basis for this argument of the non-scientific environmentalist community has been almost entirely discredited.  Most of the data it cites either has very high margin of error or has been entirely invalidated.

I'm not saying Global Warming doesn't exist, or isn't something we need to be worried about.  I am saying that if you make indefensibly extreme statements like this it winds up invalidating your position and doing more harm than good to the environmental agenda.

Posted by swamphawk22 on 11/30/2012 1:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 11/30/2012 1:38:00 AM (view original):
so, swamp..by your logic, I should go up to my smaller, weaker neighbor and take his classic Corvette, because I am stronger than him, and I want it?

Of course not. We are all the same species and have the same mental capacity and have s system of laws to govern our actions.

The fact that you think attacking a human is the same as wearing fur or eating frois gras proves that we have lost sight of our natural place in the world.

no, the fact that you see no problem with treating animals any way you want because you are at the top of the food chain, shows YOU have lost sight of our natural place in the world.

also, we have a set of agreed upon laws regarding endangered species, but you see no problem further endangering them if it suits your purposes.
Pluswhise, you say we should be able to do as we wish to animal because we are stronger and smarter.  I am stronger and smarter than my next door neighbor, and I want his car.  What does his being human instead of an ocelot have to do with anything?

It isnt that we have an advantege in inteligence over them...We are a more evolved species.

And I could even except resonable policies dealing with endnagerd species. Just none of the radical extremism.

And I think we should wear fur, it isnt harming any endangered species, just making people feel bad.

We should eat Tyson chicken, again just people feeling bad.

And the idea that we arrest people for bothering, not killing mind you, just bothering manatees. Not a ticket or a warning...but incarceration

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/30/2012 9:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by greeny9 on 11/29/2012 10:22:00 PM (view original):
Swamp, you dont want to accept the fact that people hundreds of times smarter then you (and me) have proven scientifically without any doubt that humans are affecting the climate in very dire ways.  People like you will only accept that there is a problem when your home is 5 feet below water.  You want to be guilt free whilst you eat your Tyson raised chickens.  I choose not to live like the proverbial ostrich with his melon in the sand.  I actually listen to what scientists have to say (the vast majority) and actually believe what my eyes are telling me.

Yes, its true that the Earth has always (and always will) have natural heating up and cooling down periods.  But never in the history of time has the Earth warmed up even a fraction as fast as it is right now.  This is proven fact.  Also take a look at the major storms we have been experiencing lately... every year its getting worse.  What was considered a 100 year storm 100 years ago is now considered a yearly storm.  Hurricanes even in the 70s only came a few times a year or even less.  Now you get that many in the first couple months.  Droughts, crazy cold winters in northern Europe, insane monsoons in Asia.  All of these things are rapidly growing in frequency and severity every single year for decades now.  But you go ahead Swamp, dont believe it.  Be part of the problem.

There is a lot of this that is not, strictly speaking, true.  Or right.  The liberals managed to trot out a group of scientists willing to state unequivocally that Global Warming is an immediate and serious threat, whereas the majority of the scientific population isn't actually willing to say with absolute certainty that the human influence has had any meaningful impact on climate change whatsoever.  Most scientists would be willing to say that we PROBABLY have caused some amount of warming, but that it's difficult to pinpoint exactly how much the warming trend has to do with human activity.  And most would say that it's smartest to attempt to counteract potential avenues of human influence on the climate.  But the blanket statement that "people hundreds of times smarter then you (and me) have proven scientifically without any doubt that humans are affecting the climate in very dire ways" is absolutely, positively, 100% false.  It is a MASSIVE exaggeration.  In fact, the paper in Nature which formed a large part of the basis for this argument of the non-scientific environmentalist community has been almost entirely discredited.  Most of the data it cites either has very high margin of error or has been entirely invalidated.

I'm not saying Global Warming doesn't exist, or isn't something we need to be worried about.  I am saying that if you make indefensibly extreme statements like this it winds up invalidating your position and doing more harm than good to the environmental agenda.

A very well written and thought out response.  Thank you for that.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you.  As debaters do.  Such is the problem with science eh, it seems that it goes to the highest bidder doesnt it?  And there can be no denying that the people that profit off the destruction of the environment would stand to lose a heck of a lot of "dough rey me" if the population started believing that climate change was a massive problem.  So, undeniably these "people" do everything they can to discredit and marginalize the climate change truth.  This is the way of the world.  If you have more money and power you can shape nearly anything to suit your needs.  So, as a result I dont believe the nay-sayers, they are into science for the money, not the truth.

I am not going to spend a half hour digging up proof that backs my claim that climate change is real, because anybody else can spend an equal amount of time digging up "evidence" that CC is false.  Its an arguement that cant be won unless you concede that there is truth in the fact that there are certain "people" out there that profit from confusing the issues.  And really they dont have to try all that hard, the vast majority of the population dont want to believe there is anything wrong with the way we are living, that we arent making any serious effects on the climate and the world.

Posted by swamphawk22 on 12/1/2012 2:19:00 AM (view original):
It isnt that we have an advantege in inteligence over them...We are a more evolved species.

And I could even except resonable policies dealing with endnagerd species. Just none of the radical extremism.

And I think we should wear fur, it isnt harming any endangered species, just making people feel bad.

We should eat Tyson chicken, again just people feeling bad.

And the idea that we arrest people for bothering, not killing mind you, just bothering manatees. Not a ticket or a warning...but incarceration

so, I am more evolved, smarter and stronger than my neighbor.  I want his car.  Why shouldn't I be able to go over there and take it?


and seeing some of the posts you make, makes me wonder if we are really more evolved than the animals