Previous coach promised minutes? Topic

One general comment first: I know you played way back when, but it seems like you're going through some fairly common new-player growing pains.  Namely, playing the game that you want, or imagine, it to be rather than the game that it is.

To address a couple of statements:
This started because a player essentially demanded more minutes or else he'd stop trying as hard.
That's your perspective on it, which is fine.  You see him as a hostage-taker.  You could also see him as a guy who is really dispirited and depressed about his lack of playing time.  Maybe he's not petulant.  Maybe he's sad.  It doesn't matter.  Don't take it personally.  He's not real.
Someone said it was actually because he's a junior and they expect certain minutes, which doesn't make sense to me. I think a player should only expect what he's been told he will receive.
Okay, fine, but you can't tell your players how many minutes they should expect, save for new recruits.  You can't set their expectations.
Even if I accept that, then I'm also supposed to accept the player (and others) are willing to hold coaches hostage...
I thought I heard that phrase somewhere!  Pretend I said "extortionist" above.
...by refusing to work hard if they don't get what they want. If it were real life, I'd never tolerate that kind of insubordination from a player if I were his coach. In fact, I'd probably respond by giving him my own ultimatum of "you'll ride the bench until you show a better work ethic in practice" and let him sit there if he doesn't like it.
Really, you'll feel much better if you keep it firmly in mind that these guys are not real people who are mistreating you.
8/28/2012 4:37 PM (edited)
Oh - and that guy you benched "in real life" would be likely to get ****** off and transfer.  Like in HD.
8/28/2012 4:38 PM
Posted by bistiza on 8/28/2012 4:13:00 PM (view original):
This started because a player essentially demanded more minutes or else he'd stop trying as hard. This by itself strikes me as odd, but I assumed it had to be because he'd been promised something by the previous coach. 

Someone said it was actually because he's a junior and they expect certain minutes, which doesn't make sense to me. I think a player should only expect what he's been told he will receive.

Even if I accept that, then I'm also supposed to accept the player (and others) are willing to hold coaches hostage by refusing to work hard if they don't get what they want. If it were real life, I'd never tolerate that kind of insubordination from a player if I were his coach. In fact, I'd probably respond by giving him my own ultimatum of "you'll ride the bench until you show a better work ethic in practice" and let him sit there if he doesn't like it. That would be a very realistic scenario, especially at DII or DIII where there aren't that many truly great players who a program couldn't afford to lose.
Maybe this will help you come to terms with it then - there is an "implied" agreement between players and coaches, wherein they will get at least *some* playing time as upperclassmen. 

If you've ever actually coached (in nearly any sport) and benched a junior or senior in favor of a freshman (even in high school and even if the freshman is more talented), the kid was upset. While there is a *chance* that his being upset lef him to work harder in practice to try and win "his" job back, it's more likely he was just ****** and sulked. If you think that doesn't/wouldn't happen, you really are living in Lake Wobegon.

In any event, as is you are free to bench him. And let him sit there if he doesn't like it. All season. And, if he doesn't like it, he can transfer. All like real life.
8/28/2012 4:39 PM

Anyone ever actually coached a team where every player tried his hardest?  all the time?  despite being disappointments in playing time or life?

lots of folks here coach something - I have never coached any group in which everyone tried their hardest all the time.

8/28/2012 4:49 PM
Not to stick my head in the lion's mouth or anything, but I think some of the points illustrated are valid. That is, of course, if I understood the dialog correctly. In the interest of full disclosure, I didn't read every line of every post, it seemed to devolve into a mud fight of sorts. But I digress.

I have never seen the data to exactly how many minutes a player thinks he should get as he progresses through his college career in this simulation. I would think if it's programmed into the logic, it should be disclosed to us, as the consumers, so we have an idea of potential danger of WE drop before it occurs. I realize I'm relatively new to this game, and have had no success whereas my team is concerned. I do not believe, however, that every player should react the same to decreased playing time. Again, I draw from extremely limited experience, having only this team, and another under a different sn (In world Smith, so no, I'm not cheating), but every player I've had that I didn't play significant minutes as a Junior, his WE dropped. One dropped 6-8 points in his Junior season, I can' remember the exact number. So that tells me he wants minutes, wants to play, right? However, before the next season, his Senior year, I decide to redshirt him, to see how he'd react. I get a response 3 hours later that says he fully understands, and is a team player, and accepts my decision. This happens, mind you, without any WE drop. I will say those two events are completely conflicting from a logic standpoint. Either he knows his place on the team, and accepts whatever role I have for him, or he wants what he wants and if he doesn't get it, he's not going to work as hard. I'm sorry, but logically, he can't have it both ways. The game doesn't support both logics at the same time. At least they shouldn't.

I guess the bottom line is, I believe every player should react differently to the lack of playing time. Some, it should have the effect that has been mentioned, the decreased WE. Some, it should motivate to become better so they get the minutes. While I confess I don't have any examples on the top of my head as I admit I don't follow college basketball that closely, I imagine my idea is not too far off that there are players out there who work their tail off to get more minutes, possibly starts, and actually use situations like the op described as fuel to their fire.

That's my two cents anyway...
8/28/2012 4:55 PM (edited)
I'm not going to quote a very long post, but the reason I didn't present any new logical arguments is that a great number of arguments that represent a much more realistic view of human nature than yours have already been made, and you choose to totally ignore the rationality of those and stick to your idealized perspective of how you think people should act.  What's the point of reiterating the same thing everyone else has already said when you absolutely refuse to listen to anyone else?  It's the same thing in your thread on defense.  You have a gripe with the sim, which isn't even fully founded (average-ish DEF/ATH teams to periodically win titles when they carry a lot of other skills), and you won't listen to the counter-arguments, you just dismiss them offhand.
8/28/2012 4:51 PM
bistiza, there's just a lot here that you're not understanding.

First, losing work ethic doesn't mean he's not trying as hard on the court. A player with a 99 we will have the same on-court performance as a guy with the exact same ratings except for a 1 we. Losing the work ethic is simply the game's way of telling you that he's dissatisfied and may transfer if things don't look up.

And yes, in real life, many, many, many players get upset, pout, transfer, etc. due to lack of PT ... not to mention far less serious things. To suggest otherwise, or to suggest that it would make sense for the game to operate otherwise, is just living in a dream world.

Not to mention the fact that part of the game is roster management, and if you build a team where some guys don't have room in the rotation, they may not want to stick around in your program. Simple as that.
8/28/2012 5:21 PM
Another response to your prior response to me:

We're discussing, at the core, human nature in this thread.  With that being the case, I think the fact that most people seem to agree IS a valid argument.  I'd say the perception of human nature is inherently somewhat subjective, but the more you move from the individual to the group consensus the more likely it is that the correct perception of human nature is construed.
8/28/2012 5:55 PM
bistiza, if this was truly a, help me figure this thing out, post you would listen to the help offered.  WE drop is part of the game and it is part of real life.  The only players in a RL setting that wouldn't complain are walkons.  Every player that is offered a scholarship, by you or the sim, expects to play.  If he doesn't fit your scheme, then simply cut him.  Actually, you would be doing the honorable thing in this situation.  You would give the kid an opportunity to catch on at another school where he might get that playing time.

Players at the end of the bench transfer all the time in RL.  A DI bench player will find a spot on a low DI or a DII team, and  DII player will find a spot on a DIII squad.  That DIII player will also look for other opportunities.  If they can find a spot on another DIII team, then that is what they will do.  If they just can't cut it at DIII, they will likely take the opportunity to play on the college's club team.  

That DIII player that loses WE probably, almost certainly, wouldn't lose any WE points if he was at the end of the bench at Duke. Then, sure, he would be happy to just be a part of the team.  However, that isn't the case is it.

it comes across that you are just a better more ethical person that has the ability to get the most out of his players no matter what.  What you are forgetting, in RL, that this is the player's passion.  This is by far the most important aspect of many of their lives, they want to play. 

There are just too many holes in your argument.  I think a lot of people are just getting so frustrated with you.  You just can't force your logic on the game.  WIS has many flaws, but you managed to get three pages, so far, out of one aspect that the engine pretty much nailed.
8/28/2012 7:06 PM
I'm playing the game as it is. However, like many players before me (and I'm sure many who will follow me) I will question the game, both to learn about it and to make suggestions should WIS ever decide to make changes.

Obviously, the players aren't real. But the game is based (however loosely) upon real life, and I was making an analogy to that.
8/28/2012 7:44 PM
A player I bench may well transfer if it were real life. That's if he didn't get kicked off the team first. Maybe he can go play for some wimp of a coach who will put up with him, because I wouldn't. I'd rather have a team full of guys who will show up and work hard all the time than a loser who will whine when he doesn't get what he demands.
8/28/2012 7:45 PM
I don't like this idea of "implied agreement" either. You get playing time if you deserve it, either based on your abilities or on the prospect of your future abilities or hard work.

No one is entitled to anything just because of their status as junior, senior, or anything else. That's a terrible attitude to have, and if someone shows it to me in real life, they learn things don't work out for people like them. The rest of us who work hard don't need to put up with their crap.

In this player's case, and freshman who are more talented AND have more future prospects than him, and he had a high work ethic but then it dropped when he didn't get playing time. I don't need him, so he's going to ride the pine and learn to like it or get out.

Again, people agreeing on something doesn't make it any more correct than another opinion. That's a logical fallacy.

As to human nature, people are flawed creatures, but not everyone is lazy and refuses to work hard if they aren't instantly given whatever rewards they feel they're somehow entitled to get.

8/28/2012 7:54 PM
Sorry; posted several times instead of all at once.

Work ethic is the games measure of practice and determination to get better, at least that's what I'm given to understand, which means it affects more than just telling me he's not happy.

I think the problem in real life is too many players (people in general as well) feel somehow entitled to things instead of being willing to work toward the goal of getting what they want.

I'm not trying to force "my logic" on the sim. I just think it's tremendously flawed to think all players will react like some of you insist they will.
8/28/2012 7:59 PM
I give up.  I was trying to decide if you were too stubborn or too stupid to get the point.  I'm pretty sure the answer is both.
8/28/2012 8:00 PM
dahsbebater,

I'm trying to get answers from my fellow HD players. If you want to participate in that, fine, that's good. I'll respect your opinion is yours even if you disagree with me.

However, I don't hurl insults or make personal attacks toward you or anyone, and I'd ask you to maintain the same courtesy. There is no call for those kinds of things.
8/28/2012 8:18 PM
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Previous coach promised minutes? Topic

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