All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > Previous coach promised minutes?
8/27/2012 4:54 PM
Another point is how else is the game going to punish you for not playing someone? Dropping WE is the only way for a player to show their displeasure with a coach and it makes sense for a JR not getting PT to be unhappy. He came to that school with the expectation of getting certain amounts of the PT and hes not getting that.
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8/27/2012 6:20 PM
So, to play along, should you not be rewarded for playing someone?  Or do you want to eat your cake?
8/27/2012 6:37 PM
Posted by bistiza on 8/27/2012 2:50:00 PM (view original):

I'm sure players do have a difference in their work ethic on real teams. All I'm saying is I wouldn't want them on MY team if I was the coach.

I have a few key philosophies in life, and one of them is "work hard or go home". That doesn't mean you always have to be going all out at everything, or take no breaks, or be obsessed.

But it DOES mean you don't just give up or cop out of something because your expectations aren't being met. Insted, you buckle down and give it your all so that you know beyond any shadow of a doubt if you don't get what you expected, then there was nothing more you could have done.

If you give up or get lazy like that, how do you know one bit more effort wouldn't have made the difference? You can tell yourself all you want it didn't mean anything, but the only way you'd know for sure is to do it.

I don't let expectations dictate my level of effort at anything. If I did, I wouldn't ever achieve anything, because you can literally justify anything you want as a reason to be lazy or make your "work ethic" drop.

Nothing ever gives me the right to give up because my expectations aren't immediately met. I would expect nothing less than the same attitude from my players if I were a coach in real life.

you would in real life be disappointed by many players
8/27/2012 6:40 PM
Posted by bistiza on 8/27/2012 10:39:00 AM (view original):
Really? That's rather stupid.

If you've got a team of 12 players and some are obviously better than others, the better ones get more minutes.

I usually run a ten-deep roster, which means two of my guys are going to only get five or so minutes a game most times. That's a realistic thing from everything I've seen of college basketball in real life, but apparently you get punished for it in the sim.

Ridiculous.
now lets go back to what the original poster said early in the thread - he said it was "stupid" and "ridiculous" to operate this way - now he has shifted to the argument that he has a particular approach to life which he wishes the SIM would reflect.  I would say that bistiza's view of effort is certainly admirable, but it just isnt how many people behave.  It is neither stupid nor ridiculous to have the SIM work in a way that reflect the behavior of many, in fact most, people and the not especially admirable philosophy of biztiza.
8/27/2012 7:07 PM
Posted by bistiza on 8/27/2012 6:14:00 PM (view original):
I don't think the game should punish you for not playing someone - you're the coach, you should be able to do what you want as far as who plays and how much.

They shouldn't come to your school with any expectation unless you give them one.
So you want to have the work ethic never change, for starting, or sitting, playing or not, right?
8/28/2012 12:47 PM
?
So, to play along, should you not be rewarded for playing someone?  Or do you want to eat your cake?



 
?I don't expect to be rewarded for playing somone. The players should increase work ethic based upon the fact that they WANT to play for the team, regardless of whether they actually get to.
8/28/2012 12:50 PM
?you would in real life be disappointed by many players
 

Perhaps, but I suspect not. In real life, I would make certain not to waste any time or effort recruting someone who would be that lazy.

How would I know? I'd ask the right questions or have someone do it for me. I'd find out about the kid's history and know how he reacts.

Specifically:

When he doesn't get what he wants when he wants it, does he act like a baby or an adult? Is he respectful or not? Does he work hard regardless or is he a constant loser?

I wouldn't even offer a scholarship to a player who didn't work hard all the time, and I'd make it clear anyone who gave up on our team could leave - there's the door, get out if you don't want to work hard.
8/28/2012 12:52 PM
?It is neither stupid nor ridiculous to have the SIM work in a way that reflect the behavior of many, in fact most, people and the not especially admirable philosophy of biztiza.
 

I can accept that IF the sim has a way to allow me to recruit and search for players who do not have this sort of setback.

Otherwise, how am I to avoid this player laziness? If I can't avoid it by a recruiting tactic, then don't make it part of the game for me to have to suffer through.

8/28/2012 1:23 PM
Someone is living in a fantasy world in a simulated world.
8/28/2012 2:06 PM
Posted by bistiza on 8/28/2012 12:52:00 PM (view original):
?It is neither stupid nor ridiculous to have the SIM work in a way that reflect the behavior of many, in fact most, people and the not especially admirable philosophy of biztiza.
 

I can accept that IF the sim has a way to allow me to recruit and search for players who do not have this sort of setback.

Otherwise, how am I to avoid this player laziness? If I can't avoid it by a recruiting tactic, then don't make it part of the game for me to have to suffer through.

It's a rule of the game engine - that's the only answer that matters here.  

Work ethic and starts/playing time have a direct relationship in this game.  You haven't provided one logical reason behind a player's WE not decreasing when he isn't getting the built-in expected playing time for his grade level, all you keep saying is "well, in real life, I would...".  I wish I could round up all of the posts on this forum that include the phrase "in real life" and delete them.  This isn't real life.  You can't code for feelings and emotions, everything is built into logic trees with set paths to get to those results.  

I couldn't code that John Doe isn't getting his playing time, but since he was raised by his Pappy in a mining town of blue collar workers in West Virginia that just means he'll be the first in the gym and the last out until his coach puts him in - while also handling for the same scenario but for a kid who grew up in southern Cali and calls Mommy and Daddy (who are boosters, for an extra wrinkle) and have them complain to the coach about their son's playing time.

And, really, you "have to suffer through" this?  Really?
8/28/2012 2:21 PM
Is anyone else convinced that bistiza's aliases thumbs-uped his posts on page 1 of this thread to give them stars?

Seriously, have you not yet taken a hint from the fact that EVERYONE disagrees with you?  Your stated approach to real-world coaching is nice and all, but I can guarantee you you would never keep a job at a Big 6 school IRL regardless of how good a coach you were with that philosophy.  Most of the best players have already developed into prima donna's by the time they get close to going to college.  Not all of them, but most.  If you eliminate over half of the best players from your recruiting pool the boosters will see you off in a hurry.  That's just a fact.  The game works in a way that everyone else thinks is realistic in this respect, not sure why it's so difficult for you to see that, but at least you should be intelligent enough to accept that if everyone else thinks it's realistic there's probably some truth to that.  You've literally done nothing but complain about the sim since you popped back up here a few weeks ago.  If you hate it that much, leave.  You're not posing things from the point of view that "Hey, I'm out of the loop, help me figure out how this game works now."  It's, "Hey, they broke this game, everything about it seems to suck."  Fine.  If it sucks so much, leave.  Don't let the door hit you on the *** too hard on your way out.  Buh bye!
8/28/2012 3:45 PM
?You haven't provided one logical reason behind a player's WE not decreasing when he isn't getting the built-in expected playing time for his grade level, all you keep saying is "well, in real life, I would...
 

Yes, I did. The sim is supposed to be based on real life, and it's simply not realistic for all (or even most) players to be so lazy they would lose motivation because they didn't get what they want as soon as they demand it.

The only group you could reasonably say that's true for most people is kids under 12 or so, or maybe those with an IQ under 75.

?I couldn't code that John Doe isn't getting his playing time, but since he was raised by his Pappy in a mining town of blue collar workers in West Virginia that just means he'll be the first in the gym and the last out until his coach puts him in - while also handling for the same scenario but for a kid who grew up in southern Cali and calls Mommy and Daddy (who are boosters, for an extra wrinkle) and have them complain to the coach about their son's playing time.
 

That's funny, because at one point WIS had coding for "character" which seemed to be more complex than a simple determination of "is the kid lazy or not", which is all I'm asking for.

All you'd need to do is have a simple system whereby either another rating or another variable determined the level of laziness of the kid and have coaches be able to research it somehow during recruiting, then have the kid respond appropriately during his career with your team.

?And, really, you "have to suffer through" this?  Really?

In a manner of speaking, yes. I consider it to be a flaw that every player in the system is apparently inherently lazy.
Is anyone else convinced that bistiza's aliases thumbs-uped his posts on page 1 of this thread to give them stars?
I don't have any, so apparently someone agrees with me.
Seriously, have you not yet taken a hint from the fact that EVERYONE disagrees with you? 
As you yourself pointed out, apparently without intending to, not everyone disagrees with me. 

You seem to believe that if a few people agree with you and disagree with someone else, that means "everyone" agrees with you and disagrees with them. This is a logical fallacy and doesn't help support any argument you make.
Your stated approach to real-world coaching is nice and all, but I can guarantee you you would never keep a job at a Big 6 school IRL regardless of how good a coach you were with that philosophy. 
I would simply take the same approach which creates successful hiring practices for me.  That is to say, you don't look for the most talented, but the ones who are talented and are the most willing to work for you, regardless of the circumstances.

To put it into sim-like terms, if it were ratings, you'd want someone with a 50 at talent and a 99 at willingness to work rather than the other way around, because when the chips are down or you really need to rely on someone, the first guy will get the job done, but the second guy might complain and cause problems, or worse not get it done at all.

It's the same with coaching. It's not unrealistic to expect someone to be motivated and stay that way when he's on your team. In real life, these guys are being paid (in the form of a scholarship) to play basketball - that should be more than enough motivation, regardless of other circumstances. If it's not, there's the door, go play for someone else or pay your own way to school.
The game works in a way that everyone else thinks is realistic in this respect, not sure why it's so difficult for you to see that, but at least you should be intelligent enough to accept that if everyone else thinks it's realistic there's probably some truth to that. 
As I already said, "everyone agrees" is a logical fallacy that doesn't mean anything substantial.

I see you believe what you're saying, but you've given me no logical reason to agree with you, so I don't. No matter how many people agree with you or disagree with me, that doesn't by itself mean anything.

If you can give me actual reasons to change my opinion, I will. But arguing over how many people agree with who doesn't do anything.
You've literally done nothing but complain about the sim since you popped back up here a few weeks ago. 
Apparently you haven't read very many of my posts, because I've actually argued in favor of the way WIS does things on multiple occasions. Meanwhile, no offense, but it seems you have a very negative attitude toward me here when I'm simply seeking some ideas and answers.
If you hate it that much, leave.  You're not posing things from the point of view that "Hey, I'm out of the loop, help me figure out how this game works now."  It's, "Hey, they broke this game, everything about it seems to suck."  Fine.  If it sucks so much, leave.  Don't let the door hit you on the *** too hard on your way out.  Buh bye!
 
Actually, I AM posting things from the point of view of "help me figure this out".  Apparently you've interpreted it some other way and have decided to attack me for it, which is uncalled for.

As much as you claim "everyone agrees" with you, so far it's only been you who has launched into a personal attack. I don't want to argue with you or deal with that kind of thing. I'm happy to hear your advice if you have it, but I don't attack you, and I'd appreciate it if you would extend the same courtesy.
8/28/2012 3:59 PM
Posted by emy1013 on 8/28/2012 1:23:00 PM (view original):
Someone is living in a fantasy world in a simulated world.
Lake Wobegon, where all the players are above average, they never give up, the never slack off.
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