212 plus plays Topic

Yeah, the SIM decides "Hit or Out"  before Strikeout.  Since the out is all ready decided, a "+" play can't happen.  

High fielding percentage players dp  benefit from  low K pitchers  because of the increased chances but the high range guys don't earn any more opportunities from them.
7/26/2012 5:48 AM
TJ, that latter part, about high range defenders, is the case because the range of defenders has already been calculated into whether it is a hit or an out, which comes before deciding if it is a strikeout, a + play etc. if I understand this correctly. 

Is that right ?

So, the defensive ratings, in a sense, are incorporated into the pitcher-batter matchup in determining the hit-out outcome in the first place, and only later is a strikeout determined, or a + play. In a sense, a K is treated by the SIM as though it were a + play on the part of the pitcher.

I don't like to disagree with booger on anything serious here as he is usually right about these things (and wrong about everything else, first of all his own self-estimation  - see "bomb, not the..." - but I digress), but if this is true, then the reason that high K pitchers reduce + plays is that they share in the total + plays possible with the K being their version of it, Even if 27 plus plays were possible in a game (see contrarian23's good reminder to us of the limits of the horizon event), if 10 Ks are recorded we are now down to a max of 17 + plays in the field. 

Have I got this right ?

7/26/2012 8:25 AM (edited)
I have started a separate thread that shows the order in which WIS decides what happens in each PA
7/26/2012 8:35 AM
A couple of things I can add as someone who has made many + play teams is that I have found in order to have the $$ to afford the decent to good hitting + guys you have to lower the overall quality of your pitchers.  Since pitchers are all allotted a certain # of pitches, and good defense/range defenders reduce that amount even further the best pitchers to use are indeed the low BB, low K guys since they are overall much cheaper.   As for the defenders you choose,  you do not need max range guys at every position.  You do not need a super high end A++ guy at 1st, LF or RF which allows much better flexibility in terms of offense.   I can't remember the exact # but I think I had around 240+ plays once when I put my team in Coors a few years ago.  It would up winning a 90 mil TOC from an 80 mil OL with around a 35 mil pitching staff.  The opening game of the TOC they had 9 + plays...
8/1/2012 7:27 AM (edited)
Good stuff beaneball - thanks for sharing.

My conclusions from all the posts in this thread are as follows:
-- You can win with defense.  It's difficult, but possible, and is a viable alternative to (and perhaps even a winning strategy against...) the Joss/single/SB teams.
-- Executing this strategy requires a good understanding of marginal cost and marginal benefit...this is part of what I missed in putting the initial team together.  As someone pointed out, putting 95 Maddux on this team as (a) overkill and (b) expensive.  The marginal benefit he provided in terms of run prevention was not worth his marginal cost over another pitcher of lesser quality but comparable IP/162.
-- You need a couple of good bats in the lineup, which is problematic since few if any of the A++++ range guys are really good hitters.  I like beaneball's suggestion of sacrificing range at the corners to get better offense.  And as others have suggested, it's probably a better strategy to put this club in a plus-offense park, which will do more to improve your offense than your opponents (because your great range will limit some of your opponent's extra hits).

I may try this again sometime with a different combo.  Hopefully others will too.  If you do, please consider posting your results here.
8/1/2012 9:27 AM
U got it Contrarian....

Myself and Zubinsum discussed range at length in the past, although I haven't been making nearly as many teams as I used to.  The best places to go w/ lower A+ range guys is 1B, LF & RF.  With a little research in leagues you are in it's easy to spot where the basic cutoffs are.  For example,  you don't need a 3.35 RRF guy in RF. I had almost 50+ plays out of a 3.06 RRF Willie Wilson once.  At 1B I had a 39 HR, 40+ play season from Billy O'Brien and his range at 1st is only 10.79 which is on the low end for only 4.08 mil.   Also, depending on years it seems certain guys RRF transfers much better w/ + plays.  Older players range seems to generally translate better as well as for some odd reason many of the 2011 guys as well.  Even A range can provide 20+ plays it seems for 2011

I have a A+ range Coors team right now about to start.  After that team I made won the TOC there I have tried to recapture that magic but it's much easier said than done.  I named it "A Bad Idea" thinking it was a dumb team concept to try.  I guess it wasn't.

8/1/2012 8:18 PM (edited)
Hah...I love it...the name of my team was "This Will Never Work" but it almost did.
8/1/2012 10:19 PM
Posted by contrarian23 on 8/1/2012 9:27:00 AM (view original):
Good stuff beaneball - thanks for sharing.

My conclusions from all the posts in this thread are as follows:
-- You can win with defense.  It's difficult, but possible, and is a viable alternative to (and perhaps even a winning strategy against...) the Joss/single/SB teams.
-- Executing this strategy requires a good understanding of marginal cost and marginal benefit...this is part of what I missed in putting the initial team together.  As someone pointed out, putting 95 Maddux on this team as (a) overkill and (b) expensive.  The marginal benefit he provided in terms of run prevention was not worth his marginal cost over another pitcher of lesser quality but comparable IP/162.
-- You need a couple of good bats in the lineup, which is problematic since few if any of the A++++ range guys are really good hitters.  I like beaneball's suggestion of sacrificing range at the corners to get better offense.  And as others have suggested, it's probably a better strategy to put this club in a plus-offense park, which will do more to improve your offense than your opponents (because your great range will limit some of your opponent's extra hits).

I may try this again sometime with a different combo.  Hopefully others will too.  If you do, please consider posting your results here.
It seems to me, though, that you'd be playing with fire if you both downgrade your pitching and move the team to an offensive park.
8/2/2012 10:35 PM
It definitely is, but that is just for the purposes of going for max + plays with a chance to make the playoffs.  You could do a team of this type, move it to a less offensive park and do pretty good as well, and maybe even have a better chance at the playoffs.  
8/4/2012 9:13 PM

I took the challenge and threw my Rangefinders into an open league.  We're now 50 games into the season and my team is sitting at 26-24; 7 games back so on pace for a total of 85 wins.    We're playing at Hilltop.  

Here are the team's "+" and "-" to date

1952 Goodman, 2B  11/0  .957 FP
1914 Burns  1B         9/0
1919 Fletcher SS      9/0     (I have used him a few times quite awhile ago, and recall him once having 41 + plays.  No recollection of the park used back then)
1973 North CF          8/0          
1977 Lemon LF         6/0  (actually 5-0 in LF and 1-0 in center)
1926 Douthit RF        5/0
1981 Oberkfell 3b      5/0   (I had just come off a theme season using Oberkfell and he had 27 + plays for me in that league.  Not on the same pace)

My Pitchers have combined for 8 plus plays.
Team total for + plays is 61 so am on pace for 198 total

There have been a total of 4 "-" plays.  Three have been by my "not too rangy" AAA spot starters and the ohter by my closer, '64 Barney Schultz. 

I went with a three man rotation of the 1890 Sadie McMahon (477 RL IP), the '76 Bird Fidrych, and the 1985 Hershiser.  They're doing their jobs well in a 1, 2A,2B style format with WHIPs/ERAs of 1.38/4.08,  1.25/3.16, and 0.92/209 respectively. Each of them has A+ range, as do the preponderance of my RL staff.

 In the olden days of SIM, McMahon had great value as a "+" making machine, but evidently the changes Admin made in the game has dampened that as he only has 3 for me.  I didn't take the time to do the research to refresh my memory on the defensive change specifics.     

There are reasons for me to think this crew might still be able to win 90+ games.   Our offensive line (driven by the park to some degree) is

.281 BA  .321 OBP   .364 SLG vs. a league average of .273/333/.370 while the pitchers (helped by the range no doubt) are:

.234 OAV, .309 OBP , .307 SLG, 1.27 WHIP and 3.28 ERA vs. the league average of
.273/.333/.370/1.42 and 4.23.

I'll post again after 100 or so games have been played.   



 

8/24/2012 2:24 PM (edited)
By the way, my team total of 61 Plus Plays of the above referenced team is equal to the next top two teams, who have 31 and 30 respectively.   
8/24/2012 2:29 PM
I ran a couple of open league teams out there with A++ range guys.

The 1st one is the Vacuum Cleaners... currently sitting at 71-49 playing at Hilltop Park

94 Jack Doyle - 1B - 9+
08 Nap Lajoie - 2B - 25+
22 Babe Pinelli - 3B - 13+
20 Dave Bancroft - SS - 27+
21 Max Carey - LF - 8+
73 Billy North - CF - 22+
44 John Lindell - RF - 22+

Total 129 + plays in a 120 games, it looks to be a bit under the 200+ pace.

The starting pitchers I used are the 07 Cy Young, 07 Addie Joss and 09 Ed Summers. Maybe a bit too good... but perfect starter innings needed for Hilltop.



The 2nd team is the Vacuum Cleaners II (of course). Their current record is 51-45 and also playing at Hilltop.

07 Adrian Gonzalez - 1B - 14+
68 Horace Clarke - 2B - 18+
90 Denny Lyons - 3B - 13+
88 Ozzie Guiilen - SS - 19+
10 Tris Speaker - LF - 11+
77 Chet Lemon - CF - 19+
30 Tom Oliver - RF - 10+

Total 108 + plays in a 96 games, a bit better pace, but still under a 200+ pace for 162 games.

The starting pitchers I used are the 08 Kaiser Wilhelm, 07 Addie Joss and 05 Frank Owen. A shade worse starting pitcher staff.
8/30/2012 11:34 PM
  We're now 103 games into the season and my team is sitting at 55-48;  11 games back & on pace for a total of 87 wins. Recall we're playing at Hilltop.

Here are the team's "+" and "-" to date

1952 Goodman, 2B 18/2 
1914 Burns 1B         17/0
1919 Fletcher SS      13/0    (only 4 + plays in past 53 games, disappointing)
1973 North CF          17/1         
1977 Lemon LF         7/0 (actually 6-0 in LF and 1-0 in center)
1926 Douthit RF        15/0
1981 Oberkfell 3b     11/0   

My Pitchers have combined for 15 plus plays.
Team total for + plays is 113 so am on pace for 178.   After 50 games I was tracking a 198 total


.
9/11/2012 1:00 PM
The Vacuum Cleaners have finished the regular season with a 94-68 record... made the playoffs, but one game behind the division winner.


Player SN Pos G GS Inn PO A E DP + - Fld% RF
Pinelli, Babe 1922 3B 162 162 1,406.7 132 351 16 19 19 0 .968 3.09
Lindell, Johnny 1944 RF 157 157 1,403.3 345 6 6 1 27 1 .983 2.25
North, Billy 1973 CF 158 158 1,402.3 422 4 9 1 28 0 .979 2.73
Lajoie, Nap 1908 2B 162 162 1,398.7 412 592 27 83 44 0 .974 6.46
Bancroft, Dave 1920 SS 160 160 1,388.7 364 523 40 103 34 1 .957 5.75
Carey, Max 1921 LF 154 154 1,346.7 276 6 9 0 15 0 .969 1.88
Doyle, Jack 1894 1B 130 130 1,100.3 1355 133 12 99 15 0 .992 12.17

The team finished with 185 + plays and 12 - plays. The biggest negatives were Bancroft's 40 errors and Lajoie's 27 errors. Obviously, nowhere near the top in fielding percentage. The team hit .284 at Hilltop (10th) and finished 12th in team ERA at 4.16 and OAV at .276. Both better than the league average.

Player SN B G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO HBP SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS STRK L STRK
Bancroft, Dave 1920 S 160 704 107 213 44 8 2 91 33 58 3 0 1 .303 .335 .396 .731 0 18
Lindell, Johnny 1944 R 161 661 119 206 35 18 22 119 56 71 6 0 0 .312 .369 .519 .888 1 10
Lajoie, Nap 1908 R 162 649 73 178 27 8 2 96 48 37 3 0 0 .274 .325 .350 .675 0 12
Carey, Max 1921 S 154 649 121 192 42 3 4 44 83 37 8 43 19 .296 .382 .388 .771 1 12
Pinelli, Babe 1922 R 162 628 69 184 20 9 0 83 51 56 3 0 0 .293 .348 .354 .702 0 15
North, Billy 1973 S 158 617 89 187 12 11 5 98 62 78 6 50 20 .303 .371 .382 .753 2 13
Doyle, Jack 1894 R 130 518 84 195 23 9 4 77 50 4 8 0 0 .376 .437 .479 .916 7

Player SN T G GS CG SHO W L SV SVO IP H R ER HR BB SO OAV OBP SLG WHIP ERA
Young, Cy 1907 R 52 52 1 1 21 15 0 0 355.0 396 172 149 11 94 106 .276 .324 .342 1.38 3.78
Joss, Addie 1907 R 51 51 5 0 18 19 0 0 347.3 394 184 153 6 96 80 .282 .333 .347 1.41 3.96
Summers, Ed 1909 R 49 49 0 0 24 11 0 0 329.7 304 136 121 13 81 75 .244 .291 .325 1.17 3.30
Quantrill, Paul 2003 R 90 0 0 0 7 1 5 7 77.3 77 28 27 1 21 37 .258 .314 .315 1.27 3.14
Groom, Buddy 2001 L 78 0 0 0 4 6 8 9 66.0 87 40 37 2 11 41 .313 .339 .399 1.48 5.05
Dowd, Anthony (P) 2012 R 79 0 0 0 6 2 5 8 61.0 57 23 19 3 23 32 .247 .318 .346 1.31 2.80
Komara, Nicholas (P) 2012 R 13 10 0 0 2 7 0 0 57.3 82 70 69 16 33 19 .337 .427 .597 2.01 10.83
Northrop, Jake 1918 R 55 0 0 0 1 4 23 28 53.0 58 22 21 2 7 3 .270 .301 .344 1.23 3.57
Littleton, Wes 2006 R 54 0 0 0 5 0 4 7 31.3 28 9 7 2 16 13 .237 .326 .331 1.40 2.01
Jones, Barry 1989 R 44 0 0 0 3 2 1 2 24.7 26 13 9 1 14 9 .268 .366 .361 1.62 3.28
Cooper, Guy (AAA) 1914 R 13 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 22.0 50 44 43 8 23 6 .442 .532 .735 3.32 17.59
Milligan, Billy 1904 L 13 0 0 0 3 1 0 0 19.7 28 17 13 3 3 1 .329 .344 .506 1.58 5.95
TEAM TOTALS -- -- 591 162 6 1 94 68 47 62 1,444.3 1587 758 668 68 422 422 .276 .329 .362 1.39 4.16

I thought it might be fun to see all the stats.
9/14/2012 2:31 PM
Thanks for posting Bootone
9/17/2012 11:05 AM
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