the concern I had with target minutes was the situation where a player got in early foul trouble and only played a few minutes in the first half.   I'm not sure if this "bug" has been corrected but the guy then played the entire second half trying to reach the defined target minutes.  Usually the final 10 minutes as very tired.

Since I will be bringing in my first recruiting class, should I be making promises and playing my guys big time minutes to start to steer the program in the way I want to go?  Or should I play out the upperclassmen knowing I probably won't win as much?  And if I do want to play my freshman and sophomores in the next few years, target minutes or fatigue to get them the time I want?

Posted by Iguana1 on 4/12/2012 10:02:00 PM (view original):
the concern I had with target minutes was the situation where a player got in early foul trouble and only played a few minutes in the first half.   I'm not sure if this "bug" has been corrected but the guy then played the entire second half trying to reach the defined target minutes.  Usually the final 10 minutes as very tired.

Wow, I feel like I've spotted a snow leopard or a sumatran pigmy rhino in the wild.

Avoid promises at all costs in DIII.   Avoid recruiting battles if you can since you can usually find a suitable replacement.   Avoid target minutes if possible.

Playing FR vs SRs depends on how good the FR are and how good the SRs are.  I try to accumulate as many wins as possible to help prestige, which then helps future recruiting classes.

Ok, thank you mully!  That all does makes sense and will help my recruiting along. 

shouldn't this topic already be about 50 pages long like some other similar threads?  I'll give it a day or two

Avoid promises at all costs in DIII.

I'm curious why you say this.  I would recommend the exact opposite.

Why would you recommend?  Especially early in my recruiting phase to maybe get a stud or two to build around for four year...

Posted by jaymc2007 on 2/18/2014 4:34:00 PM (view original):
Why would you recommend?  Especially early in my recruiting phase to maybe get a stud or two to build around for four year...

To your point, yes it can be a good idea with a rebuild to get some good prospects in and play them heavily early and build for their JR/SR seasons that will take your prestige to the next level.  That's definitely one way to go about it and part of what I meant. 

More generally, I think promises are extremely under-used at D3, where their recruiting value per $ is like gold.  A promised start is worth something like 2-3 HVs and costs $10.  You can sign just about any player you have access to in D3 with a scholly and a promised start.  Given how tight the budgets are in D3, that's a tremendous weapon at your disposal that shouldn't be ignored.

I probably start about 1 FR per season on average on my high prestige D3 teams.  If I take over a rebuild, I'm likely to start several FR that first season to speed up the talent progression.  I'm assuming a lot/most of the existing roster is worthless in a rebuild.

Posted by killbatman on 2/18/2014 4:29:00 PM (view original):

Avoid promises at all costs in DIII.

I'm curious why you say this.  I would recommend the exact opposite.

I concur with killbatman on this point. At D3, promises can be incredibly powerful.

You don't want to make promises you don't plan to keep or promise 6 starts with only 5 positions or anything, but used correctly I think promises are an integral part of landing top flight players (for less than you would otherwise). Even if you're starting from a lower prestige and the top flight are out of reach, you can compete more effectively for guys who are "good" compared to your starting point by using promises effectively.

It makes sense, especially if I want to start my guys.

Posted by jaymc2007 on 2/18/2014 5:04:00 PM (view original):
It makes sense, especially if I want to start my guys.

Absolutely.  If you're going to start them anyway, go ahead and promise it and save yourself the money on HVs etc.

One thing to keep in mind is if you promise someone a start, they will get mad and possibly transfer if you don't start them *enough*, which doesn't actually mean every single game.

The magic number seems to be 80%.  If you start them 21/26 regular season games, and never let the ratio dip below 80%, you should have no problems (note 21/26 is just over 80%).  Or just start them all 26 if you don't want to worry about it.  Promises go out the window in the postseason, so no one will get mad about sitting the bench in the CT or NT/PI.

I hate (no offense) when people try to say that using target minutes is somehow inferior to fatigue. If you set it up right, the only time you're going to have a real fatigue issue is like others said, when you have a player in early foul trouble. Before anyone jumps on me too much for saying that is, using target minutes in my first 4 seasons has maybe one or two times put me in a situation where I felt like there was a minute issue not due to fouls.

The key I have found is under allocating the minutes, it really does work like others are suggesting. The benefit I find to having target minutes is being able to move my players around to multiple back up positions and knowing how much time they're going to receive at that position. I find that to be a big help especially when I'm trying to set up my scorers against poor defenders or my good defenders against their top scorers.

Posted by mikvitu on 2/18/2014 5:43:00 PM (view original):

I hate (no offense) when people try to say that using target minutes is somehow inferior to fatigue. If you set it up right, the only time you're going to have a real fatigue issue is like others said, when you have a player in early foul trouble. Before anyone jumps on me too much for saying that is, using target minutes in my first 4 seasons has maybe one or two times put me in a situation where I felt like there was a minute issue not due to fouls.

The key I have found is under allocating the minutes, it really does work like others are suggesting. The benefit I find to having target minutes is being able to move my players around to multiple back up positions and knowing how much time they're going to receive at that position. I find that to be a big help especially when I'm trying to set up my scorers against poor defenders or my good defenders against their top scorers.

i don't think you should hate it. i think it is clearly true that it is easier for coaches to get good as setting up teams using fatigue, than using minutes, wouldn't you agree with that? 

also, with foul trouble and injuries, i think fatigue generally works significantly better. also, for standard ten man rotations, i think fatigue is tailor-made for those kinds of teams.

but, i am really starting to think there are some situations (not the majority) where minutes might be the optimal way to go. some of those are along the lines of what you are saying, with non-standard rotations. i also think when you want to play players more than fairly fresh level minutes, fatigue doesn't not handle those situations very well. im thinking in those cases, minutes might actually work better. i've had a couple teams surprise me with minutes-type setups. im starting to think its something that might be appropriate for more advanced coaches to start playing with, to try to get one more tool in their arsenal. however, i absolutely am not at the point where i would recommend new coaches try minutes, i think fatigue is definitely the starting point, but i am starting to wonder if minutes has a place outside of the crazy situations where you do dumb things (like i just did) where you promise starts to 4 freshman and 30m to 2 of them... minutes is DEFINITELY the way to go in those cases.

also, i generally think pressing teams will find minutes to be a significant negative. but for lower fatigue teams, minutes may have a place. so basically, i am not ruling it out as a viable strategy, but i also don't think its at all unreasonable to suggest fatigue subs are the superior option, generally speaking - ESPECIALLY for coaches still trying to master the basics. but once you can easily maintain an A/A+ program, maybe minutes are something people should explore in more depth?

i think a big part of the perception is oldresorter, who is known for being all around excellent (unlike some other folks, like me, who was never a great recruiter, and lostmyth, who was never a great coach), would talk about how hard it was to get minutes right - that good coaches would lose a game or two a season JUST on their minutes setup, to expert coaches at minute setup - and that with the advent of fatigue, he didn't see a reason to go with minutes anymore. he felt it really diminished the value of being great at team setup/game planning. but i also think that in general, the more well rounded your team (his teams usually are), fatigue is generally more appropriate. and its always dangerous to take the advice of one coach or even to just roll with the forum consensus (not when you are new, but when you are trying to get really competitive) - plus, most of the other coaches who are pro-fatigue, simply have not invested the 10-20 or so seasons it takes (minimum) to begin to master minutes. i include myself in that group. so i think people should be open minded on this subject - so essentially, i agree with you on that front.

Posted by mikvitu on 2/18/2014 5:43:00 PM (view original):

I hate (no offense) when people try to say that using target minutes is somehow inferior to fatigue. If you set it up right, the only time you're going to have a real fatigue issue is like others said, when you have a player in early foul trouble. Before anyone jumps on me too much for saying that is, using target minutes in my first 4 seasons has maybe one or two times put me in a situation where I felt like there was a minute issue not due to fouls.

The key I have found is under allocating the minutes, it really does work like others are suggesting. The benefit I find to having target minutes is being able to move my players around to multiple back up positions and knowing how much time they're going to receive at that position. I find that to be a big help especially when I'm trying to set up my scorers against poor defenders or my good defenders against their top scorers.

You can do this alomost as easily using fatigue settings if you know how to use the depth chart, "tired" settings, and foul settings  WITHOUT the risk of player fouls mucking up your game plan.