Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 11:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/15/2015 11:41:00 AM (view original):
At the end of the day, you're saying "I disagree with your legal activity.   Therefore, I will not serve you."

That's swings uncomfortably, to me, way right. 

Again, I agree that a baker should be able say "Nope, not making you a gay cake.   I will not make **** cakes.   I will not make a Nazi cake.   I won't even sell you a cake to be consumed at your biracial wedding."    However, that's not how the law works.  Even if you find a particular cake offensive, the law has to say it's offensive.  Otherwise, you lose in a court of law.

See that ISN'T what is being said. What's being said is:

"I disagree with your legal activity but will gladly serve you anything short of me having to be a participant in the activity that I disagree with".

Really isn't any more complicated than that.

Which is perfectly ok as long as you aren't dealing with race/religion/gender and, in some states, gays. You chose to open a bakery. A bakery is a public accommodation. If you choose to run a public accommodation, the deal is that you have to treat everyone equally. If you bake cakes for whites, you have to bake cakes for blacks. If you bake cakes for straight weddings, you have to bake cakes for gay weddings.

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/15/2015 11:57:00 AM (view original):

No, it is what's being said.   You're really dipping into badluckland on this one. 

You have your opinion and it's right.   Therefore, you are incapable of stepping back and thinking "What if I were wearing his shoes?   How would I feel?"

Assume you have a child out of wedlock.   The ultra-conservative store owner notices your lack of ring while you're trying to purchase a lollipop for your son.   He asks about "your wife".    You explain that you're not married but very committed to the relationship(why you'd go this deep into your personal life with a store owner is beyond me but you just did).   Store owner says "Sorry, I disagree with your lifestyle choice.  Your bastard son will not be eating lollipops from this store."

Is that OK with you? 

I can certainly step in the next guy's shoes just fine. There shouldn't be anyone surprised about a committed Christian being opposed to a same sex union. To try to force them to do so , by crying "they hurt my feelings by not celebrating my lifestyle" is dishonest at best.

A wedding cake is explicitly for a wedding. The lollipop holds no significance to wedlock or whatever.

The lollipop is explicitly for a child who was born from a situation that is opposed by your beliefs.     Are you comfortable telling a shop owner that what he believes isn't important unless it pertains to a gay wedding?

It is about artistic expression.

Let me try this way:

If you run a lumber yard, you can't not sell lumber to gays because they are going to use that lumber to construct a wedding alter for their wedding.
You have no control over that. 

However you should certainly be allowed to refuse to be the guy who builds that alter for them.

There IS a difference.

Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 1:25:00 PM (view original):
It is about artistic expression.

Let me try this way:

If you run a lumber yard, you can't not sell lumber to gays because they are going to use that lumber to construct a wedding alter for their wedding.
You have no control over that. 

However you should certainly be allowed to refuse to be the guy who builds that alter for them.

There IS a difference.

It's not about artistic expression. By choosing to go into business, you give up certain rights. You lose the right to refuse black people, for instance, regardless of what your religious beliefs are. In some (eventually all) states, the same rule applies to gay customers.

If you know that they're using said lumber to build an alter for their gay wedding, what, exactly, is the difference?   You know they're using the lumber to construct something for an ACTIVITY that opposes your belief system.

Don't sell condoms to gay men because they'll use it during gay sex.

Don't sell condoms to unmarried men because they'll use it for premarital sex.

Right?   Don't contribute to their unholy behavior.

Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 11:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 5/15/2015 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Isn't gluttony a sin?

Absolutely.

Wouldn't selling the candy bar to the fat guy aide in the activity of being gluttonous?

Posted by The Taint on 5/15/2015 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 11:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 5/15/2015 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Isn't gluttony a sin?

Absolutely.

Wouldn't selling the candy bar to the fat guy aide in the activity of being gluttonous?

You don't know that he is gluttonous. Maybe he has a glandular issue...

But you know that gay guy is going to use a condom for gay sex.   OK to refuse to sell to him?

What if you sell forks and you know the person will use the fork to eat shellfish? Or a sewing machine to make clothes with mixed threads? Or sheets to lay with a woman on her period?

Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 2:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 5/15/2015 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 11:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 5/15/2015 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Isn't gluttony a sin?

Absolutely.

Wouldn't selling the candy bar to the fat guy aide in the activity of being gluttonous?

You don't know that he is gluttonous. Maybe he has a glandular issue...

Shouldn't you at least ask him...so you can make sure you're not doing something you don't believe in?

In all 5 examples, you are simply selling a GOOD. It is impersonal and shouldn't have any effect on your belief system.

When you are a baker/Florist/Photographer, you are selling an artistic expression that comes from within. That is much more personal and is different than simply selling a good, whether it be a condom, fork, sewing machine, sheets, or a candy bar.

It is not the same.

Posted by bad_luck on 5/15/2015 1:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 1:25:00 PM (view original):
It is about artistic expression.

Let me try this way:

If you run a lumber yard, you can't not sell lumber to gays because they are going to use that lumber to construct a wedding alter for their wedding.
You have no control over that. 

However you should certainly be allowed to refuse to be the guy who builds that alter for them.

There IS a difference.

It's not about artistic expression. By choosing to go into business, you give up certain rights. You lose the right to refuse black people, for instance, regardless of what your religious beliefs are. In some (eventually all) states, the same rule applies to gay customers.

This.