Bonds Topic

napolean
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Passing the buck to the veteran's committee will probably be the way this thing is put to rest. There will be the symbolic punishment of not voting these guys into the Hall through the normal procedures, but they will ultimately get in.  In the final analysis I blame MLB as much as the players, the money was rolling in from fans who would rather watch HR Derby than baseball, so where was the upside for MLB to interfere with the gate receipts enforcing a serious drug screening program?
4/26/2011 12:01 PM
llamanunts
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What veteran's committee?  The one which considers players from the expansion era (1973-)?  That's just a way to make sure they don't get in.
4/26/2011 3:36 PM
jmcraven74
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It's pathetic that the all-time HR leader and the all-time hits leader won't be in the HOF.   Of course, there's no reason not to let Rose in the HOF as a player, except that Selig wants to prove his is bigger.  I hope this is Selig's legacy: an egomaniacal fool that turned his back on the integrity of the game in order to save it from the catastrophy he helped create. 

4/26/2011 3:51 PM
AlCheez
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Posted by truemen on 4/25/2011 10:41:00 PM (view original):
Ahh, but the question still remains...does he deserve to be elected into the HOF given that he has never admitted nor has it been proven that he has cheated?

What ever happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"?
This is silliness - the only way you can say that Bonds' steroid use isn't proven is if the only thing you'll accept is a positive test. There's probably more actual evidence available documenting Bonds' use than anyone else's out there, as documented in Game of Shadows. I don't like how the authors got the evidence they have on Bonds, but it doesn't change the fact that it exists and is pretty much unchallenged. Bonds didn't even sue them for libel, he only sued because they had used grand jury documents that shouldn't have been leaked.

The only reason Bonds didn't get convicted of all the perjury charges is because Greg Anderson was willing to go to jail for contempt rather than testify to the authenticity of the records he kept, and the court wouldn't admit them as evidence without that testimony.
4/26/2011 4:00 PM
mpitt76
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Posted by jmcraven74 on 4/26/2011 3:51:00 PM (view original):

It's pathetic that the all-time HR leader and the all-time hits leader won't be in the HOF.   Of course, there's no reason not to let Rose in the HOF as a player, except that Selig wants to prove his is bigger.  I hope this is Selig's legacy: an egomaniacal fool that turned his back on the integrity of the game in order to save it from the catastrophy he helped create. 

That's not the reason Rose isn't in the Hall of Fame.  Rose isn't in because he gambled on Baseball games.  And as we've seen through 100 years of history, you can take take drugs, steriods, juice the ball, beat your wife and none of that matters.  Baseball's #1 evil is gambling on the game.  Baseball has been very clear of that throughout it's history.  Whether you disagree with gambling being that high on the list is inconsequential.  That's what the institution of Baseball has said and that's what they will follow through with.

Yes Selig helped create the steroids mess, but it is the players and their representatives who allowed steriods in the game.  If they had ever come to the table and said test us, that would have been it.  The owners couldn't have negotiated against them, and it would have ended right there.  Yes, the owners and Selig turned a blind eye to what was going on.  But to get steroids out of the game, they would have had to lock out the players, withhold paychecks and cancel games.  Would that have been worth it?  Up to you.

Selig added the wild card...you can get on him for that one...but not really the other two...


4/26/2011 5:13 PM
llamanunts
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Yes Selig helped create the steroids mess, but it is the players and their representatives who allowed steriods in the game.  If they had ever come to the table and said test us, that would have been it.  The owners couldn't have negotiated against them, and it would have ended right there.  Yes, the owners and Selig turned a blind eye to what was going on.  But to get steroids out of the game, they would have had to lock out the players, withhold paychecks and cancel games.

Either I don't understand or that doesn't make sense.

Yes Selig helped create the steroids mess, but it is the players and their representatives who allowed steriods in the game.

I don't get it.  Everyone from the Commissioner to the owners to the players to the fans "allowed" steroids in the game.

If they had ever come to the table and said test us, that would have been it.

What, like what actually happened?  The players did agree to testing.  Does it really matter if the players or owners suggested it?

The owners couldn't have negotiated against them, and it would have ended right there.

Is that what happened, and I somehow missed it?  Or does "ended right there" actually mean "spiraled into the mess we are currently discussing"?

Yes, the owners and Selig turned a blind eye to what was going on.

Mhmm.

But to get steroids out of the game, they would have had to lock out the players, withhold paychecks and cancel games.  Would that have been worth it?

I don't know how you can get to that conclusion.  Do you really think the players would have fought hard, and have been willing to endure a work stoppage, to secure the right to avoid steroid testing?  I'm gonna say that wouldn't have been the outcome.  Mostly because it wasn't the outcome.  There's a testing system in place with rather harsh penalties which was/were agreed to by the players' union.  I think you're giving us a hypothetical that would already have taken place if it were true.
4/26/2011 5:49 PM
jmcraven74
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Posted by mpitt76 on 4/26/2011 5:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jmcraven74 on 4/26/2011 3:51:00 PM (view original):

It's pathetic that the all-time HR leader and the all-time hits leader won't be in the HOF.   Of course, there's no reason not to let Rose in the HOF as a player, except that Selig wants to prove his is bigger.  I hope this is Selig's legacy: an egomaniacal fool that turned his back on the integrity of the game in order to save it from the catastrophy he helped create. 

That's not the reason Rose isn't in the Hall of Fame.  Rose isn't in because he gambled on Baseball games.  And as we've seen through 100 years of history, you can take take drugs, steriods, juice the ball, beat your wife and none of that matters.  Baseball's #1 evil is gambling on the game.  Baseball has been very clear of that throughout it's history.  Whether you disagree with gambling being that high on the list is inconsequential.  That's what the institution of Baseball has said and that's what they will follow through with.

Yes Selig helped create the steroids mess, but it is the players and their representatives who allowed steriods in the game.  If they had ever come to the table and said test us, that would have been it.  The owners couldn't have negotiated against them, and it would have ended right there.  Yes, the owners and Selig turned a blind eye to what was going on.  But to get steroids out of the game, they would have had to lock out the players, withhold paychecks and cancel games.  Would that have been worth it?  Up to you.

Selig added the wild card...you can get on him for that one...but not really the other two...


I understand your point, but that's why I said, "there's no reason not to let Rose in the HOF as a player."  He has only been shown to have gambled while managing, not as a player.  It's no secret that Selig detests Rose personally.

Obviously there are many opinions on Rose, but I am of the opinion that unless you prove he cheated or gambled as a player, he deserves to be in.  Should he be banned from ever working in MLB again? yeah, probably so.

As for the steriods thing, we have differing opinions there, too.  Selig could have been proactive (I remember during the '98 homerun chase when McGwire was being interviewed in front of his locker and somebody questioned the bottle of androstenedione he had on the shelf in plain sight, and Selig did nothing to investigate), but Selig chose to approach the issue like an owner and not like a commissioner.  Yeah, yeah- his family, not Bud, owned the Brewers until 2004 (end of the steriod era? hmmm), and he was completely impartial... right. 

Speaking of the Wild Card- if they add a second WC in each league, I may be done... that might well be the last straw for me and MLB.
4/26/2011 5:51 PM
llamanunts
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And no, I don't think PEDs have been eradicated from the game.  I don't think they ever will be.  You can test all you want and catch some guys.  I'm for that!  You're not going to keep people who want to use the latest and greatest stuff from doing so, though.

Think about the status quo for a second: There is a PED testing system in place with harsh penalties and no practical appeals process... and the players are never going to be able to negotiate that out of existence.  Game over.  If you want more than that, you're not in touch with reality.
4/26/2011 5:54 PM
AlCheez
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Andro wasn't a banned substance in baseball when McGwire was using it (though some other organizations had banned it) and wasn't classified as a steroid until 2004 - hence the reason it was sitting there in plain sight.  

What was Selig supposed to investigate?  "He's using a legal supplement and not hiding it!  I wonder what he IS hiding!"
4/26/2011 6:06 PM
jmcraven74
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I understand that andro was not banned at the time- heck, steriods were not banned at the time.  However, as commish, he should have been concerned about the intergity of the game and the sanctity of the great records, and started looking into the connection between new supplements and exploding humerun totals.  But that might have impeded booming ticket sales.

Perhaps I am in the minority here, but I do not believe that it's ok to take a dump on the game just because it's not illegal or against the rules.  Sometimes a commish needs to get off his butt and actually preside over MLB. In my opinion, the commish has a duty to protect not only the owners of the teams, but also the fans and the players (past, present, and future).  Selig just wants to bethe commish that provided over record revenues.

4/26/2011 6:21 PM (edited)
mpitt76
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So who's to determine what's taking a dump on the game and what's not?  That's where the list of what's legal and what isn't legal comes into play.  Was the commissioner supposed to provide a list of "Legal things you can do but are just not really that cool."

Where was the commissioner when ARod stepped on Dallas Braden's mound?  Where was the commissioner when ARod yelled "Ha" at that Third Baseman? (I sense a trend here...)

Could Selig and the owners attacked the steroid issue earlier, sure.  It would be hard to argue otherwise.  But I don't think anyone else who could have attained that position would have done any different.
4/26/2011 8:15 PM (edited)
zubinsum
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Posted by truemen on 4/26/2011 7:06:00 AM (view original):
Posted by zubinsum on 4/25/2011 11:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by truemen on 4/25/2011 10:41:00 PM (view original):
Ahh, but the question still remains...does he deserve to be elected into the HOF given that he has never admitted nor has it been proven that he has cheated?

What ever happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"?
Like I wrote, I wouldn't vote for him...  I'd table the issue for the Vet's committe.
Communist
Comunist?
4/26/2011 11:11 PM
jmcraven74
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Posted by mpitt76 on 4/26/2011 8:15:00 PM (view original):
So who's to determine what's taking a dump on the game and what's not?  That's where the list of what's legal and what isn't legal comes into play.  Was the commissioner supposed to provide a list of "Legal things you can do but are just not really that cool."

Where was the commissioner when ARod stepped on Dallas Braden's mound?  Where was the commissioner when ARod yelled "Ha" at that Third Baseman? (I sense a trend here...)

Could Selig and the owners attacked the steroid issue earlier, sure.  It would be hard to argue otherwise.  But I don't think anyone else who could have attained that position would have done any different.

Your post is kinda all over the place. 

Your first paragraph is really hard to make sense of. Obviously the Commission is charged with protecting the integrity of the game.  You imply that if something isn't against the rules (as opposed to illegal, which, by the way, means something totally different), it doesn't go against the integrity of the game.  By that logic there should never be new rules (If it's not against the rules, it's ok.  If it's ok, you don't need a rule).

Second paragraph- being a douchebag is not the same as altering an instrument of the game in an effort to obtain a competitive edge over your opponent. I sense a trend here, too... one of very poor analogies.

In the end you seem to get it, but that last sentence is really just an abstract supposition.  I could easily say that Hank Aaron could have become Commissioner and I think he would have handled the situation differently.  Bam! I win- lol.
 

4/27/2011 5:21 AM
sylvanc
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I wish that "The Game" in this discussion was the rapper, not the abstract concept.  It makes me laugh to think of Bud Selig walking in on Barry Bonds taking a dump on The Game, and then giving one of those awesome, eye-popping looks like Don Knotts on Three's Company.
4/27/2011 7:26 AM
sylvanc
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4/27/2011 7:36 AM
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