I totally disagree.  We like to parse things so finely with baseball, a game that lends itself to statistical dissection more than any of the other team sports.  However, actually being able to compare players from different eras, as you suggest?  Babe Ruth was 6'2", 215 lbs; big for his day, Christian Bethancourt today.  Even with his skill set, he'd be an average player today; he's only a standout (BEST EVER) relative to his time.  The same applies to all players in all sports.  Just as Bill Russell (not to mention George Mikan) would be just another - maybe above-average- center today, the greats of Baseball Yesteryear would be mere mortals if dropped intact into today's game.

Babe Ruth would be average today?  Okay...

well, my point is that baseball is the exception...btw but..bill Russell ., in my opinion would be a great power forward today..a la dennis rodman.
baseball careers are longer..you can see players truly playing in different eras ie ted Williams look at 1957-1960...Sutton.....satchellpaige.....pete rose....there are many others I cant think of. the greatness doesn't diminish over long periods of time.

Posted by dino27 on 6/11/2015 5:54:00 PM (view original):
one of the biggest reasons that the steroid era ****** me off...baseball is the one and only sport among baseball..basketball..football hockey..tennis...and boxing where you could with absolute validity compare players across the eras..try comparing football players from 1920 or even 1970 to today..cant..hockey even from 1970 to today..cant..basketball ..before and after 1979.......with a few exceptions....boxing .heavyweights..before after 1960..
   only in baseball does sim truly work.....players are the same..look the same..play the same..it was all comparable...steroids threw a monkey wrench into a beautiful fluid heritage.

I was as much of a stats nerd as anyone when I was younger, but I do feel this point is egging on many of the "purist" [or holier-than-thou] baseball writers ... the idea that steroids ruined the record books they so much liked to write about.

If only some of the same writers had thought to unearth the problem before it got so far out of control.  [I know a couple did, but most were happy to look the other way while records were being broken, because it was a good story.]

Meanwhile, it's truly weird to see how A-Rod is being ignored this month.  He passed Willie Mays on the home run list ... he passed 2,000 RBI's tonight ... and he's a few hits away from 3,000.  The last guy for whom 3,000 hits was no big deal was maybe Cap Anson!  But A-Rod is so tainted that his own team wants to pretend he doesn't exist.

It's sad - to me - to watch A-Rod going through what he is now, basically being ignored.  He has done everything asked of him - earn your place on the roster in Spring Training, start the season DHing and batting 7th, etc. - with modesty and equanimity.  He says all the right things (and it seems sincere), and to all reports he's an incredibly positive presence in the club house.  But hey, I bleed pinstripes so I'm prejudiced.

And to pick up on that and my Babe Ruth comment, I believe he is the greatest player ever when compared to his contemporaries, which I feel is the only way to evaluate players.  While baseball stats lend themselves to cross-generational comparisons, in reality you can't do it.  Ruth didn't face players with the size and strength of those today.  Frankly, I think it's a helluva compliment to say that a player would be average or a bit above average 100 years after he played.

can you imagine the uproar if drago who was surging with steroids beat rocky balboa..it would have been a false victory..there would have been a rematch and drago would have been stringently tested..after he no longer had an advantage in his system and body rocky would have knocked him out in the 5th round. easy.
how about those e german women swimmers who were growing hair on their chest from so much testosterone..if we knew then what we know now there would have been a lot of anquish over their getting gold medals they never could have won fair and square.
bonds ? Clemens ? sosa ?
no hollow heroes in the hallowed halls !

One thing italyprof....you mentioned it's "odd" (you were much more eloquent) that Bonds hat size got bigger and he went from 40 to 73...so I have to comment on both those facts.

Bonds in 1994 hit 37 in 112 games.  On pace for 54-55 HR.  So it's not like he never showed "pop" before everyone accepts that he used.  He was a consistent 35-45 HR guy for about 5-6 years before 1999-2000 (when I believe most people accept he started juicing).  I'd argue the dilution of expansion + hitter's ballparks juiced those numbers 10% moreso than his steroid use (which did have an affect).

And about the Hat-size/steroid etc...not saying HGH didn't allow for his muscles/bone to experience growth, but he (and all other steroid users) don't take that stuff and then sit on the couch.  They still put in crazy hours at the gym and worked to get their body in peak physical condition.  All the drugs do is facilitate that.

its real easy to go to a gym when you are on steroids and it is real easy to work out under the influence.
..to me this is elementary.always has been...I am totally and completely objective about this.
did those guys use steroids..you have to be on an agenda to say no.
does it matter..the stats don't lie.....every single person in single a ball and up can hit a pitch. already.
i can only understand those who say they don't care about cheating.
you cant deny it is cheating and you cant deny the results...you can say i don't care about cheating.
that is all there is to it.

an analogy..nba..Jordan averages 35 points every season...suddenly becomes a hulk and averages 70 points a game using a designer illegal drug.....and pippen is averaging 50 points a game..it cant be done even by them without artificial means...it is fake.

Posted by pinotfan on 6/14/2015 2:22:00 PM (view original):
It's sad - to me - to watch A-Rod going through what he is now, basically being ignored.  He has done everything asked of him - earn your place on the roster in Spring Training, start the season DHing and batting 7th, etc. - with modesty and equanimity.  He says all the right things (and it seems sincere), and to all reports he's an incredibly positive presence in the club house.  But hey, I bleed pinstripes so I'm prejudiced.

And to pick up on that and my Babe Ruth comment, I believe he is the greatest player ever when compared to his contemporaries, which I feel is the only way to evaluate players.  While baseball stats lend themselves to cross-generational comparisons, in reality you can't do it.  Ruth didn't face players with the size and strength of those today.  Frankly, I think it's a helluva compliment to say that a player would be average or a bit above average 100 years after he played.

You're a Yankees fan? Now you tell me ! 

I woulda been much nicer to you all this time if I had known that ! 



You are right that A-Rod has been a model citizen (well, for the Bronx anyway) this season, and has won back some grudging admiration by some fans and some players. 

dino -

I'm not going to cut-and-paste al your posts, but I's like to offer some comments. First, let me say I have no doubt people were juicing - I'm not an apologist, wanted to get that out there. Now, having said that:

- steroids have been proven to promote healing. One thing they do NOT do is promote core strength, which anyone who has ever swung a bat above Little League can tell you is where power comes from.
- big strapping arms are of little benefit for power. If they were, everyone would get them even without supplements (ever seen Frank Howard, Boog Powell, etc.). All the power hitters would be at the gym bulking up their Popeyes - which they're not.
- starting in the '80s we saw reductions in scouting and development budgets. It's a lot easier to identify and develop batters than pitchers. The result: more offense.
- concurrently there was a switch in mindset to offense over defense as it is more exciting to most fans, and baseball was losing fan base. The result: more offense.
- with that as well, we saw the onset of the throwback, bandbox ballparks (and, though not a bandbox definitely an offensive juggernaut, Coors Field). The result: more offense. Which also means your analogy to the NBA is specious. A basketball court is constant; baseball parks are not. Even from season to season parks are tweaked (and players change teams). Therefore individual performance can vary - even dramatically, when other factors are taken into account - in a year.
- I have never seen a study that confirms power numbers were up due to steroids. Power numbers are more than home runs: move the fences in five feet and home runs go up; that has nothing to do with an individual's power hitting ability. Allow for other factors such as the above and look at power, not just HRs (unless you are suggesting that every hit improved by steroids is a home run) and the numbers for the 'steroid era' are not out of whack.
- the fact multiple players improved at once actually belies the argument. Maris wouldn't have hit 61 without Mantle's 54 (and I don't recall anyone crying 'substance abuse' over the power surge of the '50s). The single outlier like George Foster's 52 in 1977, 27% more than the second place homer hitter while playing in a pitcher's park, is more suspicious. BTW, I'm not accusing George of anything.

So yes, players used steroids. To what effect is up for debate; my feeling is the impact was negligible except to the extent it enabled players to remain healthy/heal more quickly. Now, this doesn't take into account the placebo effect: if they thought juicing helped, it did. Can't quantify irrationality.

its steroids and hgh and whatever else these guys were taking..it was illegal stuff and look at the difference..it is simple..look at baseball now..what is again....we are talking about the significant culprits...bonds,,clemens..sosa..juan gonzales..gagne...mcquire etc..they became different different different players..........they played beyond their normal human potential and they were not using steroids for healing purposes....they were using combinations of stuff...it is not important that we know all the science about it.

"...it is not important that we know all the science about it."

If I cannot argue facts, I concede the argument.

Posted by dino27 on 6/17/2015 5:13:00 PM (view original):
its steroids and hgh and whatever else these guys were taking..it was illegal stuff and look at the difference..it is simple..look at baseball now..what is again....we are talking about the significant culprits...bonds,,clemens..sosa..juan gonzales..gagne...mcquire etc..they became different different different players..........they played beyond their normal human potential and they were not using steroids for healing purposes....they were using combinations of stuff...it is not important that we know all the science about it.

Looking at baseball now I think proves one of Pinto's points.  As offense got more productive teams began drafting, developing, and valuing more highly in trades Pitchers.  The result is the more pitching-dominated game of today.  And if you wait long enough, the pendulum will swing back the other way altho I don't think its done swinging towards pitching yet.

from 1950 until steroids and after steroids through today basically the same...that's all.
I have no interest in minutcha.