All Forums > SimLeague Hockey > SimLeague Hockey > WHA Teams & Players
4/10/2010 8:43 AM
I'd forgot about some of those arenas SAK... Good Job
4/10/2010 9:21 AM
I read somewhere that the NHL determined the defensive ratings SLH hockey uses. How would the Defensive ratings be determined for the WHA players? If they are going to be arbitrarily assigned...who does it? and I'd assume no WHA player would have a D-Rating higher than 40.

I think having the WHA players as an option in theme leagues only is a fantastic idea - no normalization would be needed I think so long as defensive ratings are VERY low.
4/10/2010 9:53 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By alanasdad on 4/10/2010

I read somewhere that the NHL determined the defensive ratings SLH hockey uses. How would the Defensive ratings be determined for the WHA players? If they are going to be arbitrarily assigned...who does it? and I'd assume no WHA player would have a D-Rating higher than 40.

I think having the WHA players as an option in theme leagues only is a fantastic idea - no normalization would be needed I think so long as defensive ratings are VERY low.




Gotta disagree with you there alanasdad. If you remember in earlier versions, that is why the Joe Malone's and Babe Dye's tore up the place. Just like it is hard to believe Joe Malone would have scored 44 goals in 22 games in today's NHL, I have to believe most of the WHA players would have gotten their goal totals cut in half (at least) if they had been playing in the NHL. With many of the WHA players, they have some NHL seasons. Compare those and see that their stats in the WHA are far superior to their NHL stats.
4/10/2010 12:24 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By chuckinrlp on 4/10/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By alanasdad on 4/10/2010

I read somewhere that the NHL determined the defensive ratings SLH hockey uses. How would the Defensive ratings be determined for the WHA players? If they are going to be arbitrarily assigned...who does it? and I'd assume no WHA player would have a D-Rating higher than 40.

I think having the WHA players as an option in theme leagues only is a fantastic idea - no normalization would be needed I think so long as defensive ratings are VERY low.




Gotta disagree with you there alanasdad. If you remember in earlier versions, that is why the Joe Malone's and Babe Dye's tore up the place. Just like it is hard to believe Joe Malone would have scored 44 goals in 22 games in today's NHL, I have to believe most of the WHA players would have gotten their goal totals cut in half (at least) if they had been playing in the NHL. With many of the WHA players, they have some NHL seasons. Compare those and see that their stats in the WHA are far superior to their NHL stats.
Far enough....I don't doubt that their numbers in the NHL would not have been the same....but how do you apply a formula for ALL WHA players. Bobby Hull had about 50 goals in his last season in the NHL before joining Winnipeg, he got 50 or 51 goals in his first season of the WHA - does that mean he would have only really scored 25 in the NHL that season?????
4/11/2010 12:51 AM
The NHLers also had inflated stats when the league was watered down (like the expansion era or the fold of the WHA.)

It would be a major re-write but I believe that every player's performance should be adjusted for time-on-ice and league-average goal-tending. That would help accommodate the eras.

I'm sure this means a complete rebuild of the engine so that may be a bit much to ask.
4/13/2010 12:09 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By alanasdad on 4/10/2010
I read somewhere that the NHL determined the defensive ratings SLH hockey uses. How would the Defensive ratings be determined for the WHA players? If they are going to be arbitrarily assigned...who does it? and I'd assume no WHA player would have a D-Rating higher than 40.

Al Hamilton would beg to differ.
4/13/2010 1:12 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By damag on 4/09/2010
Agreed. SEVERE defensive rating reduction. SEVERE.

I have, on many occasions, tried to twist draft WHA rosters using NHL stats. You can't make a decent team because only a handful of successful NHL defensemen ever played in the WHA.

As much as I loved watching WHA games growing up, there was no defence in the league.

Quoting myself here for Al Hamilton's reference.

4/13/2010 2:40 PM
First of all, I love this.

Secondly, I really love this.

Thirdly, damag is right, besides JC Tremblay, Pat Stapleton, an aging Harry Howell and a young Rod Langway, there were damn few shut-down defensemen. However, the beauty of the WHA was the wide open style of play and the offensive playmaking.

This quote says it all about the WHA...

"If I ever had fun in
my life, it was there"
Gordie Howe
4/13/2010 2:59 PM
And it makes sense, you know.

What do forwards want to do? Score. A second league was the chance for guys like Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe to finally get paid after getting shorted all those years by Jack Adams and Bill Wirtz. For guys like Andre Lacroix to get off the Hawks bench; Mike Walton to carry a team instead of caddy for Esposito; Frank Mahovlich to go have some fun before he retired; Blaine Stoughton and the first wave of Euros to get ice time.

Defensemen didn't have to score, couldn't compare to Bobby Orr, and weren't going to get paid anyway (with the exception of Stapleton and Tremblay, I believe). So the best stayed in the NHL.

4/13/2010 3:08 PM
Or needed to be hired to offset Gallant, Brackenberry, Carlson, Durbano et al.

Point taken, and don't disagree with lower defense ratings overall, but to cap ALL players at a certain number doesn't fly with me.
4/13/2010 4:43 PM
how are SIM defence of ratings determined now? I never considered Pavel Demitra and Steve Shutt to be defensive minded forwards.
4/13/2010 4:52 PM
4/14/2010 8:51 AM
Quote: Originally posted by alanasdad on 4/10/2010I read somewhere that the NHL determined the defensive ratings SLH hockey uses.  How would the Defensive ratings be determined for the WHA players?  If they are going to be arbitrarily assigned...who does it? and I'd assume no WHA player would have a D-Rating higher than 40.I think having the WHA players as an option in theme leagues only is a fantastic idea - no normalization would be needed I think so long as defensive ratings are VERY low.

I read that too but don't remember where. I think I asked about it when they were coming up with v 3.0.

Anyhow - if the NHL/NHLPA dictated DEF ratings BUT the WIS now has a bit more freedom in the use of the stats, that means that the WIS admin team can totally redo the DEF rating if they want. Who actually saw Alex Smith play well enough to earn a 93 DEF with no points?
4/14/2010 9:38 AM
First of all, I believe last season was the first one in which WIS re-did the defensive ratings to their own revised formula. I know because I sent in a ticket when I saw them. There are a TON of useful defencemen in 08-09. Dennis Wideman has a freakin' 95, okay?

Second, here's how I think it works - this is a theory I've had for a long time:

Player + Team defence relative to the rest of the league + PIM + icetime = something like defence rating.

Obviously, players on teams with the best defence each season have the best defence ratings. You will also see that historically the extreme defence ratings show up on teams which far outperformed the worst teams in the league that season. Like the 44-45 Habs, or the Habs of the 70s. Extreme defence ratings actually seem to reflect the presence of terrible teams, in a way. That also looks like why, in the 50s, no players have extreme ratings. The best teams in the 50s gave up 2 goals a game, and the worst gave up 3.

So you take Alex Smith's 93. In 25-26 the Senators gave up 42 goals in 36 games. The worst teams, the Habs and the St. Pats, gave up 108 and 114. Almost 3 times as many goals. Alex Smith was one of only 4 defencemen on the Senators, and the only one who did no scoring.

The 25-26 Sens' D ratings - 95, 95, 95, 95, 95, 93, 91, 90, 89, 85. The last three players, Georges Boucher, Hooley Smith and King Clancy, appear to be docked points only for PIM.

4/14/2010 2:57 PM
Damag - that is awesome!!!

I've always wondered why Defencemen that were considered great DEFENCEmen in their day have mediocre ratings such as Bill Gadsby, Moose Vasko, Pierre Pilot, and most Doug Harvey's!

How can a player really be a 60ish d-rated player one year and a 90-something player the next year????
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