YOU THINK THEY DIDN'T???

NOPE. AT LEAST NOT UNTIL THE END CATCHING ON WITH THE SKANKS

STRAW WAS WHIPPET-THIN.  OF THE 86 METS, DYKSTRA DID. MITCHELL DID. 

greenies were taken because the players in that era partied a lot and needed them to be awake for the next game..traveling was harder to deal with..etc...im sorry but it did not make them into muscle bound freaks.

It wasn't PEDs that led to an increase in muscle mass in Major League Baseball, it was a change in attitudes and perceptions about what was valuable in terms of hitting.  An increase in the value placed on home runs, and a decrease in the value ascribed to batting average.  It's not like "musclebound freaks" didn't exist in baseball in the past.  Think Greg Luzinski.  Or even Mickey Mantle.  Certainly Bo Jackson.  And there are plenty of musclebound guys still now who have no trouble passing their drug tests.  Josh Hamilton.  Puig.  Giancarlo Stanton.  Or look at it this way - the NFL has been aggressively testing for PEDs for decades now.  Those guys are still jacked as hell.  It's not like it's beyond the capacity of the unenhanced human body to be a linebacker.  Traditional wisdom just says that it's not really the ideal body type for baseball, and it's probably not.  But over the past 20 years, more guys have recognized that it is possible to carve out a niche as a valuable player based on raw power, and that muscle mass doesn't necessary "slow down your swing."  Maybe you just have an attribution problem here.

you could'nt be more off base with your argument PED's are exactly what the acronym stands for PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS how does that one underlying fact escape you dahs all ped users increased every aspect of  their game not just home runs, look at the stats of every user and you will see a dramatic jump in averages as well as home runs palmeiro was a nobody headed back to the minors before his use mcgwire was a injury laden has been before his use bonds had his 3 highest average seasons on PED's and the list goes on and on all the way back to brian downing in 1982 and every clemens wanna be after. you can try and compare other drug use with in the history of baseball as similar but the underlying fact is they were'nt performance enhancing  and there in lies the rub.  there is no comparison  between steriods and hgh to any other drug used by athletes in the past, the only thing i have agrred with in all of your post in this thread is that yes there will always be room for the dave kingman's of the world in baseball but they don't make it to the hall or belong there and neither do athletes who took PED's

dah..i would bet anything that one or more of the steroids users was a hero you either rooted for before he started peds or you didn't know about it at the time you idolized him...and/or a favorite team won the world series..ie the redsox or Yankees..and they had some ped frauds on the team. im not trying to psychoanalyze...there has to be a rational reason for your irrational fervent defense of peders.
I have zero agenda in this argument...I am 101% objective...it is what ii is.

You might think you're objective, but did you idolize Mays, or Aaron, or Mantle?

I'm an Orioles fan.  They never even had a winning season through the height of the steroid era, and Ripken has never been associated with PED use.  Bonds and Clemens are not likable guys, they're not nice people, but they were great players.  You are 100% off base.

At the end of the day, nothing either you nor rjj has said even pretends to address that at best, the only thing that separates steroid users from amphetamine users is opportunity.  They were both breaking the law to try to play better.

LOLZ

Comparing greenies to HGH is ludicrous.

WOW so now we've dismissed the point of  "it was a change in attitudes and perceptions about what was valuable in terms of hitting" which at least had a little merit until someone analyzes it, too "the only thing that separates steroid users from amphetamine users is opportunity".  granted maybe players of the past if available would of used PED's  MAYBE!!!  you can't say that as fact because those players did'nt have that opportunity,  what we do know as fact is the basic difference of the 2 and that is performance ENHANCING. orlando cepeda is a perfect comparison to bonds his first 10 years were equal to or better than bonds then as a normal MLB player in the twilight of their career the numbers went down greenies did'nt produce those first ten years ability did, same as bonds the difference being that bonds became a ruthian monster after those first ten years and NOONE can say if was'nt because of PED's.  i suppose your next argument will be BECAUSE I SAID SO which my dad use call "the mantra of the idiot"

dahs..i do respect your opinion...it is almost like politics....we have alternate senses of reality...don't take any of my comments as disrespectful.

Orlando Cepeda through age 33: .298/.351/.507, 135 OPS+, 1 MVP
Barry Bonds through age 33: .290/.411/.556, 164 OPS+, 3 MVPs

I picked age 33 because that takes Bonds through 1998, and the most commonly-held belief is that he started juicing between the '98 and '99 seasons.  Bonds also obviously had a lot more steals at a higher success rate, more doubles, more triples, and more home runs (all in 20 fewer games).  Bonds played better defense.  Cepeda's best single-season OPS+ was 165.  By the time he is believed to start using steroids, Bonds had already topped that 8 times, including his last seven ostensibly clean seasons in a row.  Cepeda's 165 had come years earlier in his age 25 season.  So Bonds certainly went into his later career on a better trajectory and could have been expected to perform better for at least a few more seasons than Cepeda had regardless of PED use, barring any major injuries.

Maybe "overwhelmingly overshadowed by Bonds" fits into your definition of "equal to or better than Bonds," but it doesn't fit into mine...

FWIW, 3 of those pre-PED Bonds seasons had better OPS+ than Mays' career best, and 2 more beat Mays' 2nd-best.  And Bonds wasn't using amphetamines like Mays was when he put up his numbers.

i always find it interesting how baseball numbers can be skewed to support varing points of view.  i had said a 10 year comparison you chose to go a little farther in their careers let look a little shorter in their careers how about we say  after 7 years.

orlando cepeda  .309/.353/.537  141OPS+
barry bonds         .275/.380/.503  147OPS+

looks a little different now, i only used cepeda as a comparison because he had the normal slide in numbers later in his career as all greenie user had where the PED users did'nt show this normal slide. i am in no way questioning bonds as i previously credited him for his pre steriod ability, i still stand on my contention over the immense difference between greenies and steriods and there effects upon the users

Getting back on topic...

Grew up in L.A. in the late '50s thru '68, then Army/Nam, then the Bay area from '74 til a couple yrs ago...

C - Bench
1B- McGwire (w/ apologies to McCovey)
2B- Morgan
3B- Brooks/Schmidt (tough call)
SS- Oz
OF- Rickey (maybe not the 'best', but geez he could disrupt a game)
OF- Bonds (w/ regret, REALLY dislike him)
OF- Mays/Aaron (pick 1 or 2) Mays could turn it on 'at will' (see his All-Star gm performances) coasted a lot though...Aaron was just soooo smooth/easy...Never 'awed', just amazed...

SP- KOUFAX (where is the love?) Easily the best I ever saw...Just amazing...Be forewarned, a teenagers memory at work...Giants coming into Dodger Stadium, always a 'showdown'...Went Friday night, Dodgers win 2-1 behind a great gm by Drysdale...Go again Sat night, A no-no (8-0?) by Sandy over the hated Giants...A great weekend...

RP- Eck (untouchable for a couple yrs)


DBP

great comments dill,,,eck w/ his sidearm stuff was counterintuitively unhittable,,,,and people tend to overlook the value of a leadoff man that DISRUPTS the entire defensive strategy,,,sees 10 pitches,,sets the tone,,,everyone that bats next asks him a dozen questions about the pitching,,,unfortunately 4 me, a little young to see hank n willy,,,my superstar event horizon is brett, pedro, and the aforementioned