Posted by wdfox on 3/31/2024 5:15:00 PM (view original):
I did the last recruiting class was on my phone.

WIS needs an app now.

Silo players to a division

Get rid of vision

Getting rid of vision all together would literally kill the remainder of the game at lower divisions. Its the only equivalent measure to the d1a recruiting system. You even see long time coaches upset considering walking away due to how they have possibly tweaked vision. There should be some sort of reward for success and vision is literally why its called Gridiron 'dynasty'. Its also the only protection against someone just creating a shitload of accounts and hammering top schools recruiting classes to better their chances and hurt rivals.

Posted by the_dance07 on 3/31/2024 11:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wdfox on 3/31/2024 5:15:00 PM (view original):
I did the last recruiting class was on my phone.

WIS needs an app now.

Silo players to a division

Get rid of vision

Getting rid of vision all together would literally kill the remainder of the game at lower divisions. Its the only equivalent measure to the d1a recruiting system. You even see long time coaches upset considering walking away due to how they have possibly tweaked vision. There should be some sort of reward for success and vision is literally why its called Gridiron 'dynasty'. Its also the only protection against someone just creating a shitload of accounts and hammering top schools recruiting classes to better their chances and hurt rivals.

I see things like this and I realize that not everyone understands the difference between prestige and vision in GD. Prestige is earned through wins over the seasons, specifically wins over the most recent three or four seasons (there is some debate over the exact number), weighted toward the most recent seasons. The more wins, the better your prestige becomes. The better your prestige, the easier and less expensive it becomes to recruit better recruits. This is logical, it is pretty true to life, and it makes for good game play. Prestige is what many people are actually praising when they think they are praising vision.

You want "some sort of reward for success?" It's already there, it's called prestige.

I already commented earlier in this thread on vision (3/28/2024 1:27 AM). Prestige is one of the good features of the game; vision is a cancer. Understanding the difference is important for understanding GD.

Posted by CoachSpud on 4/1/2024 12:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the_dance07 on 3/31/2024 11:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wdfox on 3/31/2024 5:15:00 PM (view original):
I did the last recruiting class was on my phone.

WIS needs an app now.

Silo players to a division

Get rid of vision

Getting rid of vision all together would literally kill the remainder of the game at lower divisions. Its the only equivalent measure to the d1a recruiting system. You even see long time coaches upset considering walking away due to how they have possibly tweaked vision. There should be some sort of reward for success and vision is literally why its called Gridiron 'dynasty'. Its also the only protection against someone just creating a shitload of accounts and hammering top schools recruiting classes to better their chances and hurt rivals.

I see things like this and I realize that not everyone understands the difference between prestige and vision in GD. Prestige is earned through wins over the seasons, specifically wins over the most recent three or four seasons (there is some debate over the exact number), weighted toward the most recent seasons. The more wins, the better your prestige becomes. The better your prestige, the easier and less expensive it becomes to recruit better recruits. This is logical, it is pretty true to life, and it makes for good game play. Prestige is what many people are actually praising when they think they are praising vision.

You want "some sort of reward for success?" It's already there, it's called prestige.

I already commented earlier in this thread on vision (3/28/2024 1:27 AM). Prestige is one of the good features of the game; vision is a cancer. Understanding the difference is important for understanding GD.

They're directly correlated. Can call it whatever you want but one isn't going up without the other and both are "Hidden" ratings if not the same thing as the only way your vision is going up is via the 45-50+ wins per last three years and imo is valued more on playoff success then just pure win total but to what your crediting prestige as. I also dont know that there is such thing as prestige actually making knocking off sims cheaper at lower divisions like it does for elites at d1a. Have a number of high rated teams at all the lower divisions and the teams I take over as "rebuilds" I find to be much easier at greening recruits from sims first few cycles then the ones that should have "higher prestige"

The concept of prestige only occurs at the D1a level and has to do with the overall success of the conference with wins and now playoff success. With the hard wired advantage of the different D1a levels (elites, BCS and mids) taken into account and the fact that all D1a teams have top vision for all players. Other levels only have vision to determine which top successful teams can "see" better rated players.

Posted by katzphang88 on 4/1/2024 3:20:00 PM (view original):
The concept of prestige only occurs at the D1a level and has to do with the overall success of the conference with wins and now playoff success. With the hard wired advantage of the different D1a levels (elites, BCS and mids) taken into account and the fact that all D1a teams have top vision for all players. Other levels only have vision to determine which top successful teams can "see" better rated players.

this was my understanding as well. Well said

CoachSpud, the 2 posts you have put on this subject is so right on as I see it. The "real life" example gets used here when it helps ones argument then gets ignored when it doesn't. In real life recruits may gravitate to the more successful programs but they also simply want to play and if a prestigious program won't recruit them, they would be happy to go to a less successful one. The game is called Grid Iron Dynasty. If you understand this game and some have a great understanding of the game. That should be the reason for the dynasty. Not getting to the top then season after season after season being able to have the #1 recruiting class because you get to see recruits at a higher level than those you compete against. Getting rid of vision is not creating a level playing field but rather creating a fair playing field. I would think the highly successful coaches would want to be recognized for how they played the game and not because of all the advantages they were given. Let's give everyone opportunity to recruit the same players while giving prestige for success and then lets see if the highly successful coaches can retain that dynasty. If they do then they are truly great. Otherwise they have just been given a shorter base path, a larger hoop, a bigger goal net to shoot into and a wider goal post "because they have earned it."

And if prestige is only given at D1A then changed that.

Posted by the_dance07 on 3/31/2024 11:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wdfox on 3/31/2024 5:15:00 PM (view original):
I did the last recruiting class was on my phone.

WIS needs an app now.

Silo players to a division

Get rid of vision

Getting rid of vision all together would literally kill the remainder of the game at lower divisions. Its the only equivalent measure to the d1a recruiting system. You even see long time coaches upset considering walking away due to how they have possibly tweaked vision. There should be some sort of reward for success and vision is literally why its called Gridiron 'dynasty'. Its also the only protection against someone just creating a shitload of accounts and hammering top schools recruiting classes to better their chances and hurt rivals.

This is already happening.
Reigns is a recruiting account.
It is used to send out 100k in AC scouting so the other account doesn't have to.
In Leahy it recruited for the first time after being called out in this forum.

Posted by wdfox on 4/1/2024 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the_dance07 on 3/31/2024 11:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wdfox on 3/31/2024 5:15:00 PM (view original):
I did the last recruiting class was on my phone.

WIS needs an app now.

Silo players to a division

Get rid of vision

Getting rid of vision all together would literally kill the remainder of the game at lower divisions. Its the only equivalent measure to the d1a recruiting system. You even see long time coaches upset considering walking away due to how they have possibly tweaked vision. There should be some sort of reward for success and vision is literally why its called Gridiron 'dynasty'. Its also the only protection against someone just creating a shitload of accounts and hammering top schools recruiting classes to better their chances and hurt rivals.

This is already happening.
Reigns is a recruiting account.
It is used to send out 100k in AC scouting so the other account doesn't have to.
In Leahy it recruited for the first time after being called out in this forum.

I had no idea about that account but I mean the idea would be they still have to build up vision to see a number of the elite players for that year. 100k in scouting is pretty sus for other accounts for sure but its not trying to target/dismantle a single class at least. In the end, the top 10 or so teams can (SHOULD) see basically 85%+ of the same guys anyways. There really are only a small handful of players that only 1-2 schools can see a given cycle from what I have gathered in past experience. What doesn't make sense to me and why I believe they have been messing with stuff is the thought that its not just wins but factors such as scholarships open and distance from recruits to try to "level" the recruiting playing field in who you can see. I personally believe vision should purely be done on a success metric to emulate the d1a elite prestige, but when I cant see guys like a D2 DL that is ranked 58-59 GUESS that is 85 miles away (probably only 8-20th best DL in the class) but the coach that has been less successful than me can see him from 400-500 away I think that is what my main gripe is. The other mechanic in the game is generally the high end vision D2 teams are mainly fighting each other for UND guys at the top of the range while lower vision teams are fighting sims. I think its a game mechanic they put into play which ends up leveling out but I see some of the pros and cons to that as well. Maybe were all crazy and they havnt messed with it but the last few cycles it feels like it to me. I think there should be some sort of system at lower divisions to recognize top programs and somewhat mimic what youd end up seeing at d1a elite, bcs, nonelite which does run on a prestige. But my take was lower divisions run on vision, the vision aspect of it unfortunately has just begun to no longer make sense to me how its worked out by them.

At the lower levels, just because a player is visible does not mean that they are better. They may have a higher rating, but that does not mean that they are a better player and if you do not understand this at the lower levels, you need to dig in to it. Imho

Posted by holdaway on 4/1/2024 8:02:00 PM (view original):
At the lower levels, just because a player is visible does not mean that they are better. They may have a higher rating, but that does not mean that they are a better player and if you do not understand this at the lower levels, you need to dig in to it. Imho

Not sure if this was in general or at me but that's literally my point in that he was a 58ish guess DL this is a guy that shouldnt even be in "top vision" rating wise, there were better players rating wise but guy was within 100 miles and had great WE, he was the fit I needed in that class at the time and UND for a while. I still scouted him anyways knowing I couldn't sign him to just see the POT, and few cycles in a lower ranked team grabbed him off the board which is what really lead to my shock and feelings that vision is made up by more factors than just success if he was visible to this guy who by all known vision calculation theory should have been less but I could not see him. The only thing that made sense to me is he was further away from this guy who had twice the schols vs a very easy cheap recruit to me close.

Let’s look at some of the conversation here a little more closely.

“They're directly correlated … one isn’t going up without the other.” Correlated, yes, but that’s not the point. Vision is actually redundant, based on same measures as prestige, but adding the artificial boundary that absolutely prevents a team from trying to recruit a player that a team with just one more win can recruit, an artificial barrier that has no counterpart in real life and in GD serves as a rich-get-richer effect that damages the competitive balance of the game.

“The concept of prestige only occurs at the D1a level and has to do with the overall success of the conference with wins and now playoff success.” Yes, such an effect may exist. “the hard wired advantage of the different D1a levels (elites, BCS and mids)” And that most certainly exists. But those aren’t what we are talking about here. We are talking about the effect that the more wins, the better your prestige becomes and the better your prestige, the easier and less expensive it becomes to recruit better recruits. That effect is certainly present at levels other than D1A. Call it whatever you want, I’m just calling it prestige.

“At the lower levels, just because a player is visible does not mean that they are better.” Good point. The way recruits are ranked in GD is not an exact reflection of their real utility. That ranking doesn’t seem to take into account the greater importance of the “core” attributes in the way that most experienced coaches have learned to do. Also, a player that fits your system may not fit my system, and vice versa. However, we all recognize that there is at least some merit to the rankings. A #10 player is likely better than a #110 player, who in turn is likely better than a #210 player by any definition.

To better understand the problem with vision, consider two teams that are right at the top of the vision for their division. For three seasons they have identical W-L records, but in the fourth season one team wins one more game than the other. Do you think that team should (1) have an ever-so-slightly harder time recruiting a few the top recruits, or should (2) they suddenly be absolutely prevented from even trying to recruit those same few guys? Well, to me, since their record is now ever-so-slightly below the other team, it makes sense that they should have a slightly harder time recruiting those top few recruits, but not be magically prohibited altogether. In this scenario, (1) is prestige and (2) is vision. (1) makes perfect sense, but (2) makes no sense at all.

Edited to add: I see Dance has helped make my point -- should he have been PROHIBITED from signing that DL, or should the stronger team have just a bit of an edge based on their better prestige. Dance, how did you like being prohibited? Vision bit you in your nether regions.

Posted by CoachSpud on 4/1/2024 9:56:00 PM (view original):
Let’s look at some of the conversation here a little more closely.

“They're directly correlated … one isn’t going up without the other.” Correlated, yes, but that’s not the point. Vision is actually redundant, based on same measures as prestige, but adding the artificial boundary that absolutely prevents a team from trying to recruit a player that a team with just one more win can recruit, an artificial barrier that has no counterpart in real life and in GD serves as a rich-get-richer effect that damages the competitive balance of the game.

“The concept of prestige only occurs at the D1a level and has to do with the overall success of the conference with wins and now playoff success.” Yes, such an effect may exist. “the hard wired advantage of the different D1a levels (elites, BCS and mids)” And that most certainly exists. But those aren’t what we are talking about here. We are talking about the effect that the more wins, the better your prestige becomes and the better your prestige, the easier and less expensive it becomes to recruit better recruits. That effect is certainly present at levels other than D1A. Call it whatever you want, I’m just calling it prestige.

“At the lower levels, just because a player is visible does not mean that they are better.” Good point. The way recruits are ranked in GD is not an exact reflection of their real utility. That ranking doesn’t seem to take into account the greater importance of the “core” attributes in the way that most experienced coaches have learned to do. Also, a player that fits your system may not fit my system, and vice versa. However, we all recognize that there is at least some merit to the rankings. A #10 player is likely better than a #110 player, who in turn is likely better than a #210 player by any definition.

To better understand the problem with vision, consider two teams that are right at the top of the vision for their division. For three seasons they have identical W-L records, but in the fourth season one team wins one more game than the other. Do you think that team should (1) have an ever-so-slightly harder time recruiting a few the top recruits, or should (2) they suddenly be absolutely prevented from even trying to recruit those same few guys? Well, to me, since their record is now ever-so-slightly below the other team, it makes sense that they should have a slightly harder time recruiting those top few recruits, but not be magically prohibited altogether. In this scenario, (1) is prestige and (2) is vision. (1) makes perfect sense, but (2) makes no sense at all.

Edited to add: I see Dance has helped make my point -- should he have been PROHIBITED from signing that DL, or should the stronger team have just a bit of an edge based on their better prestige. Dance, how did you like being prohibited? Vision bit you in your nether regions.

While a lot of this I agree with in the first few paragraphs. What was missed was I was the stronger team...about 3 more wins in the last 4 seasons and the only one to make it to the 4th round or NC game during that span. Leading me to the conclusion that vision is not just about track record of the last 3-4 seasons and why I believe they are trying to tweak things to lower the pool and give unexplainable advantages to teams without being at the top of the prestige or vision of what we assumed it took to get there. Which is what I have a problem with and why I am wondering why the stronger team with a better track record significantly closer to the recruit no longer has that advantage now.

Posted by CoachSpud on 4/1/2024 12:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the_dance07 on 3/31/2024 11:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wdfox on 3/31/2024 5:15:00 PM (view original):
I did the last recruiting class was on my phone.

WIS needs an app now.

Silo players to a division

Get rid of vision

Getting rid of vision all together would literally kill the remainder of the game at lower divisions. Its the only equivalent measure to the d1a recruiting system. You even see long time coaches upset considering walking away due to how they have possibly tweaked vision. There should be some sort of reward for success and vision is literally why its called Gridiron 'dynasty'. Its also the only protection against someone just creating a shitload of accounts and hammering top schools recruiting classes to better their chances and hurt rivals.

I see things like this and I realize that not everyone understands the difference between prestige and vision in GD. Prestige is earned through wins over the seasons, specifically wins over the most recent three or four seasons (there is some debate over the exact number), weighted toward the most recent seasons. The more wins, the better your prestige becomes. The better your prestige, the easier and less expensive it becomes to recruit better recruits. This is logical, it is pretty true to life, and it makes for good game play. Prestige is what many people are actually praising when they think they are praising vision.

You want "some sort of reward for success?" It's already there, it's called prestige.

I already commented earlier in this thread on vision (3/28/2024 1:27 AM). Prestige is one of the good features of the game; vision is a cancer. Understanding the difference is important for understanding GD.

Vision is applicable too. High School coaches will stop schools from recruiting their players. I am a new coach in Wilks and had the vision of Bird Box my first season. It hardly takes some effort to rack up wins, so this should not be a deterrent for those playing in good faith. Also, just because prestige makes it easier doesn’t mean elite coaches want to battle spam user accounts. Requiring 3 months of play to get decent vision seems fair.

Posted by the_dance07 on 4/1/2024 10:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 4/1/2024 9:56:00 PM (view original):
Let’s look at some of the conversation here a little more closely.

“They're directly correlated … one isn’t going up without the other.” Correlated, yes, but that’s not the point. Vision is actually redundant, based on same measures as prestige, but adding the artificial boundary that absolutely prevents a team from trying to recruit a player that a team with just one more win can recruit, an artificial barrier that has no counterpart in real life and in GD serves as a rich-get-richer effect that damages the competitive balance of the game.

“The concept of prestige only occurs at the D1a level and has to do with the overall success of the conference with wins and now playoff success.” Yes, such an effect may exist. “the hard wired advantage of the different D1a levels (elites, BCS and mids)” And that most certainly exists. But those aren’t what we are talking about here. We are talking about the effect that the more wins, the better your prestige becomes and the better your prestige, the easier and less expensive it becomes to recruit better recruits. That effect is certainly present at levels other than D1A. Call it whatever you want, I’m just calling it prestige.

“At the lower levels, just because a player is visible does not mean that they are better.” Good point. The way recruits are ranked in GD is not an exact reflection of their real utility. That ranking doesn’t seem to take into account the greater importance of the “core” attributes in the way that most experienced coaches have learned to do. Also, a player that fits your system may not fit my system, and vice versa. However, we all recognize that there is at least some merit to the rankings. A #10 player is likely better than a #110 player, who in turn is likely better than a #210 player by any definition.

To better understand the problem with vision, consider two teams that are right at the top of the vision for their division. For three seasons they have identical W-L records, but in the fourth season one team wins one more game than the other. Do you think that team should (1) have an ever-so-slightly harder time recruiting a few the top recruits, or should (2) they suddenly be absolutely prevented from even trying to recruit those same few guys? Well, to me, since their record is now ever-so-slightly below the other team, it makes sense that they should have a slightly harder time recruiting those top few recruits, but not be magically prohibited altogether. In this scenario, (1) is prestige and (2) is vision. (1) makes perfect sense, but (2) makes no sense at all.

Edited to add: I see Dance has helped make my point -- should he have been PROHIBITED from signing that DL, or should the stronger team have just a bit of an edge based on their better prestige. Dance, how did you like being prohibited? Vision bit you in your nether regions.

While a lot of this I agree with in the first few paragraphs. What was missed was I was the stronger team...about 3 more wins in the last 4 seasons and the only one to make it to the 4th round or NC game during that span. Leading me to the conclusion that vision is not just about track record of the last 3-4 seasons and why I believe they are trying to tweak things to lower the pool and give unexplainable advantages to teams without being at the top of the prestige or vision of what we assumed it took to get there. Which is what I have a problem with and why I am wondering why the stronger team with a better track record significantly closer to the recruit no longer has that advantage now.

Can somebody help me understand vision? I read somewhere that with the Yatzr tool that you would max out at about 97% vision - the very elite coaches. So, to me that means even the best coaches don't see 3% of the pool. Everyone in this thread seems to think it's just the better players that show up in your vision as it improves. Since this is a random number game, I would assume that you just see more, and not necessarily all better.

Therefore, the example of a lesser coach seeing a good DL that better coach cannot is just random dumb luck.