Zones and Double Team Topic

Trentonjoe
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Does anyone know WHO is the 2nd defender in a double team?......If I double the PF, is it the C of SF (or someone else) who becomes the "doubler"?  Does it matter?
4/25/2015 8:30 AM
oldave
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joe, my thinking was it just strengthened the defense somehow if the doubled player takes the shot or handles the ball,  and weakens it if other players take the shot or handle the ball.  ive always assumed it had a negative effect on rebounding also.

but please bear in mind i have no evidence, mind you, none  that these things are true. 


but you raise an interesting point... does double teaming really help if the kid coming over to help is a bad defender or athletically challenged?




actually, i think the answers might be even more interesting for m2m doubling.  in that case you have an actual one on one matchup of skillratings,,, and we know (or assume) that the defense is somehow strngthed by doubling that player,  but what if the doublers suck defensively?

for zone defense your already working off of some kind of averaging to get your defensive rating,  i just figure that gets some kind of boost..
4/25/2015 9:01 AM
Trentonjoe
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I sent in a ticket....
4/25/2015 9:42 AM
chicomn
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I'm curious to hear about response to this TJ
4/25/2015 5:57 PM
thewizard17
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Posted by Trentonjoe on 4/25/2015 8:30:00 AM (view original):
Does anyone know WHO is the 2nd defender in a double team?......If I double the PF, is it the C of SF (or someone else) who becomes the "doubler"?  Does it matter?
I would guess it would depend on the type of offense the other team is running and it depends on where the PF receives the ball. In fact, each possession could be different.
4/25/2015 9:50 PM
Trentonjoe
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I got a response but I can't cut and past in the forums......if someone smails me I'll send it to you (I can cut an paste in smail) and you can post it!
4/29/2015 9:01 AM
llamanunts
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Here ya go... question:

WHO is the 2nd defender in a double team?
If I double the PF, is it the C of SF (or someone else) who becomes the "doubler"? 
Does it matter?
 
Is it just a flat -10% (or something) if a player is doubled or does the 2nd defenders defensive attributes come into play?
Response:
The engine doesn't pick a specific player as the double-teamer. It's more like how you describe it in the second example, where it's a flat rate of impact. This is one area we'd like to improve on at some point, to do a better job of incorporating the quality of the defenders and create more variability in how successful double-teams are.
4/29/2015 9:17 AM
Trentonjoe
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Look at you with your fancy boxes.....
4/29/2015 9:21 AM
llamanunts
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So it's basically just pumping the primary defender?  And it works the same across all defenses?  That's odd.

So... since there is no "doubler", what is the impact on the rest of the defense?  This is potentially more troubling, and I'm not going to word it well, but... if I double player A, and there's no "doubler", are players B, C, D and E all getting a normal matchup, with player A less likely to make a shot and more likely to miss/pass/TO?  Is there or isn't there a penalty for double-teaming?

Small sample size, confirmation bias, assorted disclaimers... it has seemed me to me that multiple doubleteams work better than they should.

ETA: I mean, why not just double team everyone all the time?
4/29/2015 9:29 AM (edited)
llamanunts
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Fancy as hell.  I ain't Chromebookin' around!
4/29/2015 9:24 AM
Trentonjoe
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Posted by llamanunts on 4/29/2015 9:29:00 AM (view original):
So it's basically just pumping the primary defender?  And it works the same across all defenses?  That's odd.

So... since there is no "doubler", what is the impact on the rest of the defense?  This is potentially more troubling, and I'm not going to word it well, but... if I double player A, and there's no "doubler", are players B, C, D and E all getting a normal matchup, with player A less likely to make a shot and more likely to miss/pass/TO?  Is there or isn't there a penalty for double-teaming?

Small sample size, confirmation bias, assorted disclaimers... it has seemed me to me that multiple doubleteams work better than they should.

ETA: I mean, why not just double team everyone all the time?
My assumption, based on assist numbers, is that if player A is double teamed he has a X% penalty on FG% and turnovers and is more likely to NOT shoot, and the other players have a smaller X% bonus on FG% and are more likely to shoot.
4/29/2015 9:53 AM
the0nlyis
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I don't know who guards who, but another question I would have is:

I assume low bh/pas/iq players are affected more from a double team than a high bh/pas/iq however is there a scale for guards/big men so doubling a guard with 50 bh 50 pas would be more effective than doubling a 70 bh/pas player, and a big man with 30 bh/pas is better to overcome a double team than a 10 bh/pas big man, but does a 50 bh/pas guard get more affected by a double than a 30 bh/pas player, so would positional location affect double team effectiveness.  So is a low bh/pas guard still better than a relatively good bh/pas big man?
4/29/2015 9:58 AM
llamanunts
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Posted by Trentonjoe on 4/29/2015 9:53:00 AM (view original):
Posted by llamanunts on 4/29/2015 9:29:00 AM (view original):
So it's basically just pumping the primary defender?  And it works the same across all defenses?  That's odd.

So... since there is no "doubler", what is the impact on the rest of the defense?  This is potentially more troubling, and I'm not going to word it well, but... if I double player A, and there's no "doubler", are players B, C, D and E all getting a normal matchup, with player A less likely to make a shot and more likely to miss/pass/TO?  Is there or isn't there a penalty for double-teaming?

Small sample size, confirmation bias, assorted disclaimers... it has seemed me to me that multiple doubleteams work better than they should.

ETA: I mean, why not just double team everyone all the time?
My assumption, based on assist numbers, is that if player A is double teamed he has a X% penalty on FG% and turnovers and is more likely to NOT shoot, and the other players have a smaller X% bonus on FG% and are more likely to shoot.
Okay, so double team pretty much everyone, unless there is one clearly dominant scorer and everyone else sucks.
4/29/2015 10:19 AM
beefburglar
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I was under the impression that if there are more than 2 DT'd players on the court at the same time, the effects are nullified. Is that right?

4/29/2015 10:43 AM (edited)
beefburglar
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Ps. Solid sleuth-work, Joe. I had a hunch DTs worked someway along those lines -  having clarification on the mechanic is super nice.

Thanks for sharing dude!

Also, I'd assume that this would apply to all sets and not just the zone?

4/29/2015 10:49 AM (edited)
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