This guy, for the win.

www.espncleveland.com/common/more.php


Excerpt:

"I was taught that justice is a right that every American should have. Also justice should be the goal of every American. I think that’s what makes this country. To me, justice means the innocent should be found innocent. It means that those who do wrong should get their due punishment. Ultimately, it means fair treatment. So a call for justice shouldn’t offend or disrespect anybody. A call for justice shouldn’t warrant an apology."

The death of the 12 year old boy was tragic.  But looking at it from the police point of view . . . they arrived on the scene and encountered a person waving a very realistic looking gun around, who was pointing it at people, and was still waiving it around when the they arrived.  They made a split second decision that the person (they didn't know it was a child) was a direct and immediate threat, and they handled it.

I have a 12 year old son, and he has an airsoft gun, much like the one that Tamir Rice had.  When we got the item for him last summer, it came with very strict rules:

1)  It does not leave our property.  It doesn't go to school, it doesn't go to a friend's house, etc.  If it leaves our property, he loses it for good.  No second chances.
2)  It does not get pointed at anybody else.  Period.  If it gets pointed at another person, he loses it for good.  No second chances.
3)  It is only used outside, in the yard.  If it is used inside the house, even once, he loses it for good.  No second chances.
4)  His friends cannot use it.  If they do, even if they find it and use it without his knowledge or consent, he loses it for good.  No second chances.
5)  If his brother wants to use it, we (mom and/or I) need to be told before hand, and rules 1-4 apply to him as well.
6)  When not being used, it is put away in a drawer in his bedroom.  If it is left out anywhere else in the house when not in use, he loses it for good.  No second chances.

If Tamir Rice's parents had similar rules established for him, and if he had followed them, he would still be alive today.

Ohio is an open carry state. Had the 12 year old been holding an actual gun, I'm not sure the cops would have been justified in shooting him 2 seconds after arriving on scene. The fact that it was just a toy and he was 12, just makes it that much worse. The cops have to be held responsible when their split second decision making is so horrible.

You encounter a person waving what appears to be a very real gun around, who has been reported to have been pointing it at people in an erratic and threatening way.

Are you supposed to ask "Excuse me son, but is that a real gun in your hand"?

If it's not your day, you could end up with a bullet between the eyes before you get to the word "but".

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:00:00 PM (view original):
You encounter a person waving what appears to be a very real gun around, who has been reported to have been pointing it at people in an erratic and threatening way.

Are you supposed to ask "Excuse me son, but is that a real gun in your hand"?

If it's not your day, you could end up with a bullet between the eyes before you get to the word "but".

There wasn't anyone else near the kid when the cops arrived. Most cops pull up farther away from the suspect and ***** the situation. They don't jump out and open fire without any clue as to what is actually going on.

And again, Ohio is an open carry state. Holding an actual gun in public is perfectly legal.

Is waiving a gun and pointing it at people in an erratic and threatening way also legal?

If it is, then I'm glad I don't live in Ohio.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:00:00 PM (view original):
You encounter a person waving what appears to be a very real gun around, who has been reported to have been pointing it at people in an erratic and threatening way.

Are you supposed to ask "Excuse me son, but is that a real gun in your hand"?

If it's not your day, you could end up with a bullet between the eyes before you get to the word "but".

I don't even need to know but you're wasting your time arguing with BL on this.

Being a cop is a tough job.   They have to make quick decisions with virtually no information.   No one is going to say "That 12 y/o got what he deserved."    It seems that the liberals, like BL, want the cops to wait to act until shots are fired, punches are thrown, bodily harm is inflicted, etc, etc.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:12:00 PM (view original):
Is waiving a gun and pointing it at people in an erratic and threatening way also legal?

If it is, then I'm glad I don't live in Ohio.

Did the cops see the kid pointing the gun at people? From the video, you see Rice sitting on a bench. Then he gets up and starts walking. Before he leaves the covered area the cop car pulls up and he's dead. There's no one else in the frame. Who was he threatening?

You don't clearly see his hands or the gun in the video at the time the police car arrived.  I assume the cops did.  They pulled right up to the gazebo, he was already moving in the direction of the car, only a few feet from the car, and they shot him.  I would assume that they felt an immediate threat based on what they saw in the moments at which they arrived at the scene.

It's tragic.  A 12 year old kid is dead for playing with a toy.

If mom and dad had rules in place, and the kid had followed the rules, this wouldn't have happened.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
You don't clearly see his hands or the gun in the video at the time the police car arrived.  I assume the cops did.  They pulled right up to the gazebo, he was already moving in the direction of the car, only a few feet from the car, and they shot him.  I would assume that they felt an immediate threat based on what they saw in the moments at which they arrived at the scene.

It's tragic.  A 12 year old kid is dead for playing with a toy.

If mom and dad had rules in place, and the kid had followed the rules, this wouldn't have happened.

I don't think Rice was in control of where the cops stopped their car. Had they followed procedure and stopped an adequate distance away from Rice, instead of two feet away from him, Rice would probably still be alive.

I know you love to blame the victim and never, ever want to blame the police, but the police are pretty clearly in the wrong here.

And anyway, the point of the thread isn't to argue that the police were justified, it's to highlight Hawkins for his thoughtfulness on the subject.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
You don't clearly see his hands or the gun in the video at the time the police car arrived.  I assume the cops did.  They pulled right up to the gazebo, he was already moving in the direction of the car, only a few feet from the car, and they shot him.  I would assume that they felt an immediate threat based on what they saw in the moments at which they arrived at the scene.

It's tragic.  A 12 year old kid is dead for playing with a toy.

If mom and dad had rules in place, and the kid had followed the rules, this wouldn't have happened.

Let's throw out a hypothetical. Let's say your son disobeyed your toy gun rules and took the gun to the park and did exactly what Rice did. Do you think the cops would have jumped out of the car and shot him on the spot, no questions asked?

I'll challenge that "the police are clearly in the wrong here".  There's nothing clear about it.  I know you love to blame the police and never, ever want to blame the victim.

And the blame is shared.  The kid is to blame for doing something stupid.  But he's just a kid.  Twelve year olds are not the most responsible human beings on the planet.  Mom and dad get the lion's share of the blame for letting their kid wander around the streets of Cleveland brandishing a realistic looking toy weapon.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 1:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
You don't clearly see his hands or the gun in the video at the time the police car arrived.  I assume the cops did.  They pulled right up to the gazebo, he was already moving in the direction of the car, only a few feet from the car, and they shot him.  I would assume that they felt an immediate threat based on what they saw in the moments at which they arrived at the scene.

It's tragic.  A 12 year old kid is dead for playing with a toy.

If mom and dad had rules in place, and the kid had followed the rules, this wouldn't have happened.

Let's throw out a hypothetical. Let's say your son disobeyed your toy gun rules and took the gun to the park and did exactly what Rice did. Do you think the cops would have jumped out of the car and shot him on the spot, no questions asked?

I have no idea what the cops in my town would have done.  There's not really any gun violence in my town.

But hypothetically . . . I'd feel horrible that my son was shot, and would wonder why he suddenly disobeyed rules that were so clearly stated and followed up until that day.