The OT Pt. 2: What do you do... Topic

When the competitive fire at your current school has been extinguished? I've been at D3 Oberlin in Knight forever. Not really forever, but 60+ seasons. I'm bored. I've slacked on recruiting. I've put up 1600 wins in that world and have Oberlin as the all-time wins leader for D3. I'll never win a NC-I've accepted that fact-but I'm still addicted. And bored.

I went D2 in Phelan, and am planning on building up that West Virginia Wesleyan program...but what about Knight? I would love to take a program like Bethany (Knight) and build them up, but it's D3 and I'm afraid I'd burn out quickly. I'm looking at a few D2 schools, but what really interests me are some D1 programs in the CAA. We're thinking about moving to Virginia and I think "coaching" a team there would be sweet. I know all about the pitfalls of D1 through the Forums and some time at IUPUI in Phelan, but think the challenge would be what I need.

So guys, what do you do/have you done when you need a spark?
11/18/2014 6:56 PM
Trying to build a mid/low D1 dynasty.

No other level of HD really interests me anymore. 

11/18/2014 7:50 PM
I haven't found a place in HD that I enjoy more than the mid-major level.
11/18/2014 11:06 PM
By the way tanner, you should respond to that non-conference game I requested for next season in Crum. :)
11/18/2014 11:10 PM
Why have you accepted the fact that you'll never win a National Championship?
11/19/2014 1:28 AM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 11/19/2014 1:28:00 AM (view original):
Why have you accepted the fact that you'll never win a National Championship?
I've come close-a NC game appearance and a few FF's-just haven't been able to get that one big win. Gameplanning just hasn't been my strong suit even though I've gotten better after all these seasons. I've always managed to overthink the situation and end up making the wrong adjustment. I guess I shouldn't say "never", but my seasons with postseason success (S16's, FF's) are few and far between. The 2 PIT banners soften the blow, but just a bit. I know moving up will bring less postseason success, but maybe that's part of the challenge I need.
11/19/2014 3:52 AM
P, I sent you a request for a non-conference challenge in Phelan. If I was you, I'd go mid D1. It looks fun from what I read.
11/19/2014 8:03 AM
paul, the simple answer is simple - change. when it gets boring, you can change it up or pack it in and find a different hobby. sounds like you don't want the latter, which just leaves finding some new challenge/situation. you have pretty many options within that, but what is best, its really about what sparks your interest. i suppose you can just grind it out there, doing the same thing but expecting different results, but i think we all know that doesn't end well. you could:
- stay at your current school, but run a completely different system, something outside your comfort zone
- drop your current school and run with less teams for a while, so you start to miss it, that definitely helps
- stay in d3, but move to a power conference, so that game in and game out, you are put to the test (im assuming you didn't make it 60 seasons in an empty conference, that that is a relatively recent development - that can have a pretty big impact)
- move to d1

there are many others, or any combination of those things... just got to find something that sounds like a fun new challenge, and give it a shot. its been 5 years since i got really fed up with this game and had to do something different - but i tried to resolve that for, well, about 3 years, by doing the exact same stuff and hoping the magic came back. it didn't. the only thing that made it better was finding new territory to uncover. i had mastered some aspects of the game, enough to be pretty dominant, but i didn't know how to run a zone team, i hadn't recruited in a wide variety of d1 situations, i didn't know how to run a good FB team, i never ran a team with multiple defenses, i never coached a team with someone else... over the last couple years, i've experienced all those things, and its kept it fresh and interesting, relatively speaking.

on the championship thing, you have 2 options, it seems to me. the conventional descriptions of success here tend to box things in. for me, like many others, the only pursuit was championships, and it really stops being fun after a while, by definition you stop taking big gambles and trying things you don't know much about or think are the "best way". so, it gets stale, and i assume this is the case regardless of how many you actually win in that pursuit. i think you need to either focus on just having a good time, or, double down, and focus on getting better, being the best coach you can be, in terms of success, which may or may not correlate to enjoyment. i think you can find a spark either way. if you go that route, get yourself in the toughest conferences you can find, play with the best coaches you can find, study the top teams. run 2-3 teams yourself on a similar system, all in brutal conferences, and you will definitely improve.
11/19/2014 11:46 AM
Posted by gillispie1 on 11/19/2014 11:46:00 AM (view original):
paul, the simple answer is simple - change. when it gets boring, you can change it up or pack it in and find a different hobby. sounds like you don't want the latter, which just leaves finding some new challenge/situation. you have pretty many options within that, but what is best, its really about what sparks your interest. i suppose you can just grind it out there, doing the same thing but expecting different results, but i think we all know that doesn't end well. you could:
- stay at your current school, but run a completely different system, something outside your comfort zone
- drop your current school and run with less teams for a while, so you start to miss it, that definitely helps
- stay in d3, but move to a power conference, so that game in and game out, you are put to the test (im assuming you didn't make it 60 seasons in an empty conference, that that is a relatively recent development - that can have a pretty big impact)
- move to d1

there are many others, or any combination of those things... just got to find something that sounds like a fun new challenge, and give it a shot. its been 5 years since i got really fed up with this game and had to do something different - but i tried to resolve that for, well, about 3 years, by doing the exact same stuff and hoping the magic came back. it didn't. the only thing that made it better was finding new territory to uncover. i had mastered some aspects of the game, enough to be pretty dominant, but i didn't know how to run a zone team, i hadn't recruited in a wide variety of d1 situations, i didn't know how to run a good FB team, i never ran a team with multiple defenses, i never coached a team with someone else... over the last couple years, i've experienced all those things, and its kept it fresh and interesting, relatively speaking.

on the championship thing, you have 2 options, it seems to me. the conventional descriptions of success here tend to box things in. for me, like many others, the only pursuit was championships, and it really stops being fun after a while, by definition you stop taking big gambles and trying things you don't know much about or think are the "best way". so, it gets stale, and i assume this is the case regardless of how many you actually win in that pursuit. i think you need to either focus on just having a good time, or, double down, and focus on getting better, being the best coach you can be, in terms of success, which may or may not correlate to enjoyment. i think you can find a spark either way. if you go that route, get yourself in the toughest conferences you can find, play with the best coaches you can find, study the top teams. run 2-3 teams yourself on a similar system, all in brutal conferences, and you will definitely improve.
Awesome gillespie1. Thanks for the thoughts. I had actually just had Oberlin as my only team and decided to pick up D2 WVWC in Phelan to change things up. I think I've settled on a D1 job in the CAA and try to build a consistent winner with a low-to-mid major. I'm thinking it being my "fun" team and do things like have an all-Virginia recruited team or change up the Off/Def schemes. I think WVWC will be the team where I try to finally break through and have some postseason success. I'm getting fired up about changing jobs. I appreciate all the advice, Coaches.
11/19/2014 11:57 AM
thats great, the only thing is, if you really want that one team that is success driven, i highly recommend going to a power conference. that d2 conf is pretty much empty. we humans are all the same, we can try incredibly hard at incredible challenges, but its damn near impossible to give an easy challenge one iota more effort than it takes to satisfactorily complete that challenge. no way you can consistently work on your game planning skills (which you mentioned as a key weakness) when day in and day out, you are beating up some mediocre sim AI run program. instead, go to a power conference, let the top coaches there beat you down for a while - thats how you will see progress. when your conf is sending 10 teams to the NT and half your conf games are against top 25 teams, thats when you really sharpen your edge. you are only in your 2nd season there now, i'd take the hit if i were you, playing in a tough conference is one of the best things aspiring coaches can do to hone their craft. between that and engaging on the forums and with other coaches, you hit the 2 things i would recommend to new, highly competitive coaches - to me, that is 101, sure, you can be successful without those things, but its a heck of a lot harder. 

final note, one of the top traps of great teams is that they don't play hard enough opponents, and end up tailoring their team to the opponents they play, which is often VERY different from tailoring your team to the opponents you hope to be playing late in the NT. the relative efficiency of offense players, for example, varies greatly by the quality of your opponent. many game planning options are very different when you play the best as one of the best, or when you play anyone else. other than forcing you to stay on point, which i mentioned already, being in a great conference does two things. first, it allows you to tailor your play to real opponents, better preparing you for late NT games. second, it lets you know when you don't have your team setup right yet, or when your understanding of how good your team should be, is off. play a bunch of easy teams, win those games, you learn nothing - maybe your team is good, maybe its great, how can you hope to know? but if you have 15 games against NT opponents on your schedule, i'm guessing you'll find out where you really stand - which you can compare to where you SHOULD stand, or hope to stand, based on the talent on your team. you recognize you aren't where you should be, and make adjustments to get better. that feedback loop is the key mechanism to growing as a coach. if you are only getting real feedback on the quality of your top teams (the ones you think you built the way you think they should be built, not the ones with a bunch of mistakes you already know you made) by NT success, you are going to grow slowly, guaranteed. but if you are getting that feedback all season, you can make some real progress. 
 
 
11/19/2014 12:32 PM (edited)
Posted by gillispie1 on 11/19/2014 12:32:00 PM (view original):
thats great, the only thing is, if you really want that one team that is success driven, i highly recommend going to a power conference. that d2 conf is pretty much empty. we humans are all the same, we can try incredibly hard at incredible challenges, but its damn near impossible to give an easy challenge one iota more effort than it takes to satisfactorily complete that challenge. no way you can consistently work on your game planning skills (which you mentioned as a key weakness) when day in and day out, you are beating up some mediocre sim AI run program. instead, go to a power conference, let the top coaches there beat you down for a while - thats how you will see progress. when your conf is sending 10 teams to the NT and half your conf games are against top 25 teams, thats when you really sharpen your edge. you are only in your 2nd season there now, i'd take the hit if i were you, playing in a tough conference is one of the best things aspiring coaches can do to hone their craft. between that and engaging on the forums and with other coaches, you hit the 2 things i would recommend to new, highly competitive coaches - to me, that is 101, sure, you can be successful without those things, but its a heck of a lot harder. 

final note, one of the top traps of great teams is that they don't play hard enough opponents, and end up tailoring their team to the opponents they play, which is often VERY different from tailoring your team to the opponents you hope to be playing late in the NT. the relative efficiency of offense players, for example, varies greatly by the quality of your opponent. many game planning options are very different when you play the best as one of the best, or when you play anyone else. other than forcing you to stay on point, which i mentioned already, being in a great conference does two things. first, it allows you to tailor your play to real opponents, better preparing you for late NT games. second, it lets you know when you don't have your team setup right yet, or when your understanding of how good your team should be, is off. play a bunch of easy teams, win those games, you learn nothing - maybe your team is good, maybe its great, how can you hope to know? but if you have 15 games against NT opponents on your schedule, i'm guessing you'll find out where you really stand - which you can compare to where you SHOULD stand, or hope to stand, based on the talent on your team. you recognize you aren't where you should be, and make adjustments to get better. that feedback loop is the key mechanism to growing as a coach. if you are only getting real feedback on the quality of your top teams (the ones you think you built the way you think they should be built, not the ones with a bunch of mistakes you already know you made) by NT success, you are going to grow slowly, guaranteed. but if you are getting that feedback all season, you can make some real progress. 
 
 
I think this final note is actually very important. I firmly believe that one of the reasons for Tark GLV's success in the NT year after year is the fact we get to figure things out in conference against top competition. This past season, we sent 9 teams to the NT, 8 of whom made the Sweet 16. 6 of the Elite 8 teams were from GLV, 3 of the Final 4, and it was an all GLV championship game. In that championship game mniven's St. Joseph team knocked off gpgp's Lewis program. In conference play, St. Joseph went 8-8 and Lewis went 9-7. The two teams in the championship went a combined 17-15 in conference play, but by playing such strong competition and seeing real examples of how game plans fared against other top human teams, it is possible to get a very good idea of what works best come NT time.
11/19/2014 12:57 PM
its so awesome you guys have carried on in such dominant fashion :) 

the other thing that is great about great conferences, is you really feel proud to win the conference, or to win the CT. there are MANY times i won the CT, many of those in that same GLV-tark, where i was more proud of the CT win than the elite 8 or final 4 appearance that followed. objectively, winning a brutally tough CT can often be a greater challenge than making a deep run. so can winning a conference championship - when you've got 4 or so of the top 10-20 teams in the country in one conference (or even one division), its pretty huge, when you manage to top the rest of the guys.

the NT has a lot of luck, and is inherently prone to people not getting "what they deserve". but conference play, there is room for really tough achievements to be won, battling for those top spots can be extremely competitive, and without all the disappointment inherent in the NT. some people say its a joke, that others care about conf achievements - but i say those folks were never in a conference like the GLV. i honestly don't even know how people can play this game in empty conferences, its so dry all season... you just have recruiting and the NT!
11/19/2014 1:42 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 11/19/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):
its so awesome you guys have carried on in such dominant fashion :) 

the other thing that is great about great conferences, is you really feel proud to win the conference, or to win the CT. there are MANY times i won the CT, many of those in that same GLV-tark, where i was more proud of the CT win than the elite 8 or final 4 appearance that followed. objectively, winning a brutally tough CT can often be a greater challenge than making a deep run. so can winning a conference championship - when you've got 4 or so of the top 10-20 teams in the country in one conference (or even one division), its pretty huge, when you manage to top the rest of the guys.

the NT has a lot of luck, and is inherently prone to people not getting "what they deserve". but conference play, there is room for really tough achievements to be won, battling for those top spots can be extremely competitive, and without all the disappointment inherent in the NT. some people say its a joke, that others care about conf achievements - but i say those folks were never in a conference like the GLV. i honestly don't even know how people can play this game in empty conferences, its so dry all season... you just have recruiting and the NT!
A run to a CT championship can certainly be a great consolation prize for a disappointing NT performance. Last season, I had a fairly inconsistent season at Cali, Santa Cruz, but we managed our best run of the season in the CT, winning three straight games against ranked opponents (including a top five team in the country I believe) and it felt great. We raised our seed from a 7 to a 3 along the way and did end up getting booted in the first round of the NT, but it made the loss easier to swallow because I was so proud of what my team did in the conference. 
11/19/2014 4:19 PM
Take a D3 school and make it interesting for yourself by establishing some extra constraints, like "I'm only going to recruit bald guys" or "I'm only going to recruit players whose first names start with vowels.  Meet Alvin, Albert, Otto, Ian, and Eddie."  Might be fun to see if you could still consistently make the tournament under various goofy constraints.
11/19/2014 6:42 PM
Full conferences are always a challenge, but usually rewarding. Last year my San Diego team was the 6th best team in the CCAA. The conference had like 4 teams seeded in the top 16 and 6 seeded in the top 30 of the NT. We went on to lose in the NC game as the 6th best team in the conference. You never know!
11/19/2014 7:29 PM
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