Coach, I didn't think you were actually going to show up, so it was quite a surprise when you did. I thought I had already made it clear that I really have no interest in playing at Averett. Sorry for wasting your time.

He accepts my home visits.
Shows up on my D3 screen.
Outright rejects my scholarship, not even the "need more information'
not considering me after 2 HV, but i can give more.

Is he recruitable?

despite any logic to the contrary the evidence seems to say "no"

Did you inform of redshirt?

no

i believe this is a bug introduced by seble in the engine rewrite. you can send it on to CS to get more info, maybe, or maybe just to bring it to their attention.

it seems the guy is unwilling to recruit you. this has been brought up on the forums in the past, even for guys in the same divisional search (which should be impossible). if you are curious to investigate, you could send another HV + scholarship or something, but im pretty sure there is nothing you can do.

I'm pretty sure I came across a bug as well this go around in Wooden.  At D3, I called a guy on my D2 list.  He gives me a message saying he's immediately recruitable, despite the fact he's 280 miles away.  But then he rejected all my effort.  Right before signings I did a search and notice he's now on my D3 list and being considered by a lower prestige D3 team.  Never got a message saying he dropped or anything (not that I would expect such a message given he was immediately recruitable).  Overall, very strange.

Posted by darnoc29099 on 9/19/2014 10:04:00 PM (view original):
I'm pretty sure I came across a bug as well this go around in Wooden.  At D3, I called a guy on my D2 list.  He gives me a message saying he's immediately recruitable, despite the fact he's 280 miles away.  But then he rejected all my effort.  Right before signings I did a search and notice he's now on my D3 list and being considered by a lower prestige D3 team.  Never got a message saying he dropped or anything (not that I would expect such a message given he was immediately recruitable).  Overall, very strange.

just for the sake of 100% accuracy do you still have the initial response to post? 

OP (and darnoc too, though it might not help anymore) pls report these - after seeing a couple more posts I looked back through my tickets...

I am posting the entire exchange only because it is much simpler than trying to summarize (other than a very brief summary saying that players that are shown as D3 should be immediately recruitable by all D3. 

6/24/2011 4:01 PM	dacj501
Hi, Could you please tell me exactly what the "Projected Level" tag on the Recruiting Search screen does? If I select "Division 3" from this pull down menu what exactly does that mean?
6/24/2011 4:15 PM	Customer Support
Thanks for the note. You indicate the talent level of the players that you want to find in your search for recruits.
6/24/2011 4:21 PM	dacj501
So if I indicate Division three players, all the results will be available to my Division 3 team?
6/24/2011 9:25 PM	Customer Support
Probably 99% of the time, they will be open to your efforts. There are rare cases where a player will drop after not getting any interest and show up in the search even though he won't be interested in going to a school at that level.
6/24/2011 11:35 PM	dacj501
That makes sense - If a player starts out on my D III list before recruiting starts he should be available on the first cycle though right?
6/25/2011 12:10 PM	Customer Support
Yes.
6/25/2011 1:48 PM	dacj501
In that case there must be an issue. Its well past first cycle now of course, and the player in question is now considering many other teams. BUT, Calvin McCune, a center from NJ, showed on my initial scouting search as a D III player. I took a screenshot. I can send if you need it. I sent him effort between 6 pm and 8 pm on opening day of recruiting. He rejected all phone calls and my scholarship offer out of hand. Before anyone else was considering him or before he could have dropped. No one else was considering him at 8 when he rejected me either, or for another couple cycles after that. I know of at least 1 conference mate suffering the same issue.
6/26/2011 1:55 PM	Customer Support
It looks like you withdrew the scholarship, not that he rejected it.
6/26/2011 3:16 PM	dacj501
Nope, I've noticed that it says that as well, but it also shows rejected scholarship - it is the third thing from the bottom showing on my recruiting history display for the player. He didn't reject the letters, but rejected phone calls and the scholarship offer. I still have screen shot if you want it.  I think it always shows that message when a scholarship is rejected, but I haven't seen it in a while. My history clearly shows rejected scholarship though, which he couldn't do if I rescinded it.
6/26/2011 4:00 PM	dacj501
I'm not looking for any action about returning recruiting money or anything, I moved on and found another player, no worries, but you folks earlier in this exchange agreed that if a player starts on the D III search page he should be recruitable, and this kid wasn't. And a number of other coaches are seeing the same thing. We just want to be acknowledged and not made to feel like someone there thinks we are lying about this or something. If you tell me that there seems to be something, and seble will take a look at it for the next release but in the meantime send a phone call first to D III kids as a work around, I have no problem with that either, I just want to be treated honestly. I sent this kid of mine 40 phone calls and 40 letters and a scholarship between 6pm and 8pm on the first cycle of recruiting. He rejected all the calls and the scholarship, did not reject the letters. Only cost me $700, no big deal. Why would I be going through the trouble of sending this to you if it did not happen? What is the upside for me to make it up? I just want the game that I love and have spent a lot of time and money on to love me back a little and not act like I'm lying to them for no reason...
6/26/2011 7:05 PM	Customer Support
Did you get any inbox responses from him? I don't see any. It sometimes helps for us to read the responses. I'm certainly not accusing you of lying about anything, but often times we get tickets submitted where it's just a misunderstanding or someone looking at something wrong. If there is truly a problem then of course we want to track it down. The more information we have the more likely we'll be able to determine what happened.
6/26/2011 7:23 PM	dacj501
I did have some responses, and before I decided to send this in I deleted them, but I think they were just the responses to the letters which weren't rejected. I wish I had them. I feared you'd need them.  I know this is happening, and I get that its hard to find it from your side. I will pay very close attention next season and retain every thing in case it happens again to help you find it.  He definitely was there prior to recruiting and definitely rejected phone calls and scholie though... kujayhawk had the same thing happen, and I've sent him a sitemail to see if he got any inbox responses. So far dahsdebater, kujayhawk and tiyani7886 all have commented either in the forums or on our conference CC that it happened to them too. Thanks for hearing me and trying to figure it out. If you can't do anything more with what info I have, I'll make sure to try to save it all next time.
6/26/2011 7:52 PM	dacj501
Chris (kujayhawk) responded and sent me the messages he got from the two recruits that it happened with: From: kujayhawk To: dacj501 Received: 6/26/2011 7:44:00 PM Subject: RE: do you have the responses  Message: Daryl, I don't have screenshots from my search screen (because that's not how I recruit, I dump everything into Excel). But here is what I have for the two in my email. I don't have phone calls because they were rejected. ERIC MULLIGAN 1. Coach Call Hey Coach, thanks for the call to chat about Eric Mulligan. I'm just trying to be courteous so don't take this the wrong way - he doesn't even know who you are. May want to move on. Rory Iorio Head Basketball Coach Sierra College 2. Home Visit It was interesting to hear you talk about Thomas, but I didn't hear anything that would change my opinion. I'm still going to have to mark you down in the 'NO' column. It's in permanent ink. Eric Mulligan 3. Scholarship Coach, I gotta be honest with you - the more I think about playing there, the more I think it's just not for me. Sorry. Eric Mulligan ROBERT WEINSTOCK 1. Coach Call Hey Coach, thanks for the call to chat about Robert Weinstock. From one coach to another, I don't think you have a shot here. I've never heard him mention Thomas - positively. Joseph Karvonen Head Basketball Coach Corning Community College 2. Evaluation Notes (there was nothing in Mulligan's eval that said anything) Overall, I think with some work, he'll be a decent Division II player - although he would probably sign with the right DIII school - I don't think there's anyway he'll see an offer from a DI school. BTW, I tried to give him a thumbs up during the game and I'm pretty sure he flipped me off. I don't think that's a good sign. [and] Overall, I think with some work, he'll be a decent Division II player - although he would probably sign with the right DIII school - I don't think there's anyway he'll see an offer from a DI school. Just my gut here, but I think we're chasing something we'll never catch. He's convinced he's going to play at a higher level than we can offer. I think he's right. 3. Scholarship Coach, I gotta be honest with you - the more I think about playing there, the more I think it's just not for me. Sorry. Robert Weinstock . Hope this helps. Cheers, Chris
6/27/2011 12:29 PM	Customer Support
In your case, he rejected your efforts after a scholarship was withdrawn. He accepted your efforts at the 7:00 cycle on 6/23, but then the scholarship was withdrawn before the next cycle. He rejected everything once that happened.  My guess is that it was an accident, since the withdraw is in the same place as the offer scholarship. Maybe you didn't realize that you'd already offered it once and ended up clicking it a second time.
6/27/2011 4:47 PM	dacj501
well, everything for me happened the first cycle - I didn't put anything in after the 8pm eastern cycle (I put all my effort in between 6 pm edt and 8 pm edt) next time around I'll keep a better eye and make sure if it happens again I'll have more info. He accepted the letters but not the phone calls or scholarship. Pretty sure I didn't rescind it, but I'll take more detailed notes next season. Thanks for looking at this, I still believe there is a problem, but I'll need more consistent evidence for you to find it maybe. Hopefully it won't happen next season, but if it does I'll be prepared.
6/27/2011 7:08 PM	Customer Support
Sorry, you're right, that did all happen in one cycle. The reasoning still applies though. A withdrawn scholarship immediately gives you major negative feelings from the player. The fact that it's easy to mistaken withdraw is a failure on our part. We'll put that on the list for improvement, to decrease the chances of it happening.
6/27/2011 7:11 PM	dacj501
thanks, and I'll pay closer attention.. Appreciate the feedback. Thanks. A quick followup on that withdraw thing - if I should accidentally withdraw a scholarship in the future, but I do notice it and immediately re-offer, is there still that negative impact? or does the re-offer negate that (kind of like the redshirt notify/retract thing?)
6/28/2011 9:46 AM	Customer Support
Currently a scholarship withdrawal is processed immediately, unlike other recruiting efforts. Re-offering helps, but it won't wipe out the negative impact of withdrawing.
6/28/2011 9:17 PM	dacj501
good to know - thanks!

basically, i never did convince them of the problem, but I know this bug exists where sometimes kids that should be recruitable at your level simply aren't. that's why if you have current recruiting data (that stuff is gone once recruiting is over per CS) and message responses from the kid to show them maybe they can find it. Ask specifically for seble and reference this thread...

Posted by darnoc29099 on 9/19/2014 10:04:00 PM (view original):
I'm pretty sure I came across a bug as well this go around in Wooden.  At D3, I called a guy on my D2 list.  He gives me a message saying he's immediately recruitable, despite the fact he's 280 miles away.  But then he rejected all my effort.  Right before signings I did a search and notice he's now on my D3 list and being considered by a lower prestige D3 team.  Never got a message saying he dropped or anything (not that I would expect such a message given he was immediately recruitable).  Overall, very strange.

sending this to seble would be great! i've discussed these bugs with him, and hes kind of aware, but said they didn't have a concrete example *while recruiting was still going on*, so he wasn't able to figure it out. apparently they lose a lot of data when recruiting rolls, so he can't take a close look. so to anybody reading this, if you hit these bugs especially early in recruiting and can report them immediately, that would really help him figure it out.

to give credit, where credit is due, seble is great in this area. i've sent him a **** ton of bugs, and we usually figure it out right then and there, and he usually fixed it very quickly. remember how you used to get errors posting to the CC? or... i can't remember the rest. but there are a ton of things that he was able to hash out with me, even though others reported it first, simply because i know (from being a developer) to give him the right information. hes got to have the ability to try to reproduce (in something like the CC post) or else to see the situation as it stands (like in recruiting). makes all the difference in the world.

the other thing is, if you post on the forums, a lot of times other coaches will have good questions to get more information out of you, that can help determine the problem. some of the bugs i've gotten fixed, i just took the time to figure it out myself, and then i could say "ok this is exactly the problem you have". seble is not actually that great of a debugger, but almost no programmers are, its really hard. they need clues, so its important for us as customers to think about how we can provide the best information to him, and when we do, he is awesome about following up on it and either fixing it or at least explaining the problem and why its too hard to fix (like the bug where a capped stamina player loses points in the off season and can never regain any points, regardless of how much you practice).

i guess i should stop now, posting while drinking has not always turned out so awesomely for me :( but anyway just FYI your bug is another known bug. its actually the worst of all known bugs, because you are supposed to always be able to at least trust the phone call response, as a means to mitigate bugs like the OP's bug, and apparently you can't always! its pretty horrible. the other bug posted is about the 2nd worst, where a guy in your division won't talk to you. only question i'd ask darnoc, how far is that lower prestige d3 school? that could be a factor, but its a bug either way. can you also post the message he gave you, so we can confirm? and the effort you gave him and his response? i went through this in detail with another coach, so i do believe the bug exists, but anyone can miss something, and this is a *very* rare bug it seems, so the more info you can provide, the better.

interesting dac. dac hadn't posted when i posted, but thats what im talking about. its hard for CS to decipher this kind of stuff, so the more people who can send it in, the better. but at the same time, start a post here. hell, you can even sitemail me if you want. i have had a lot of success working through bugs with seble, and in the interest of making the game better, will usually respond to those kinds of things as fast and thoroughly as possible. its VERY easy to miss all the factors and stuff, which makes it hard for CS to know if its user error or a bug in the game - thats why i say, start a forum post here immediately too, to start working through the possibilities. they've caught me in mistakes as well, when i was reporting bugs (to make fun of myself, about 4 years ago, i reported a guy fouling #7 not resulting in a 1 and 1 - but it was a fricken offensive foul! lol). so it can happen to anyone. but if you get your bug vetted by the forum community, that can help. i can help you figure out what is the critical info to send in, too, and you'd be doing the game a big service if you got one of these bugs fixed (that goes for everybody!). seble is really good about this stuff if you give him the info - i would estimate 25-50% of my conversations with him have actually resulted in a change to the game code. most of that was bugs (but a bunch was logic changes too, like how now a pg's passing helps team mates get better open looks). hes really a good guy, but its important to realize debugging is hard and that developers often have to assume its a user error first - because it usually is - so if you can demonstrate its not, that really goes a long way. if they spent a lot of time tracking down every supposed bug, 90% of that time would be a waste, and they wouldn't be able to get any real work done. its that way in most consumer-facing products. so when someone can step up and submit a really good bug report - man, that is so awesome! as a developer, its rare and i love when it happens, it really makes my life so much easier, when its my products. im sure its the same for him. i'm more than happy to help craft the ticket even, if someone wanted that. debugging d2/d3 recruiting would really help, its a shame seble introduced these bugs in the engine rewrite, but we've failed to identify the causes on any of them, and none of them (to my knowledge) have been fixed. sucks really, you guys could do a great service getting some of this identified.

Posted by dacj501 on 9/19/2014 11:12:00 PM (view original):

i guess i should stop now, posting while drinking has not always turned out so awesomely for me

Besides, you need to be helping me get ready to recruit now! 

oh, crap! i forgot i was supposed to be hiding ;)

hey jeff, one thing from my ticket that is true is that when when you rescind an offer it shows in the history as rejected scholarship (or vice versa - something like that) - I'm sure most of us have seen it tons of times and just ignored it, but it probably confuses debugging efforts

edit : also, sitemail!

Posted by dacj501 on 9/19/2014 11:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 9/19/2014 10:04:00 PM (view original):
I'm pretty sure I came across a bug as well this go around in Wooden.  At D3, I called a guy on my D2 list.  He gives me a message saying he's immediately recruitable, despite the fact he's 280 miles away.  But then he rejected all my effort.  Right before signings I did a search and notice he's now on my D3 list and being considered by a lower prestige D3 team.  Never got a message saying he dropped or anything (not that I would expect such a message given he was immediately recruitable).  Overall, very strange.

just for the sake of 100% accuracy do you still have the initial response to post? 

Hey Coach, thanks for the call to chat about Barry Johnson. 

I don't remember if I mentioned this to you already or not, but we primarily run a flex offense. Relative to the other kids on the team, I'd say his knowledge of the flex is average. 

Defensively, we primarily play man to man defense. I'd say he is average at man to man .

Eric Larson
Head Basketball Coach
Grafton HS

Dang...just realized he ran my sets, too.  Even more of a bummer now!

And I sent a ticket...