All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > MLB: a bag of a**holes.
5/13/2014 10:56 AM
It's somewhere south of six 60+ HR seasons over a four year span, and somewhere north of a guy popping an occasional amphetamine pill.

If I determine an exact number, I'll let you know.

5/13/2014 11:00 AM
OK, cool.  

Do you wonder why the NFL suspends players 25% of the season for "popping an occasional amphetamine pill"?
Do you think the NFL is as tough on PED as MLB?

5/13/2014 11:07 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 5/13/2014 10:34:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 5/13/2014 10:16:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 5/13/2014 10:11:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 5/13/2014 9:06:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 5/13/2014 5:58:00 AM (view original):
So you're saying the ends justify the means?  Yes.

Doesn't that also apply for Arod? He was facing pitchers on PEDs, competing against other hitters on PEDs, and made the decision to "break a couple eggs" in order to help the Yankees win titles.  
No.  Do you think Arod did what he did "for the good of the team", or did ARod do what he did "for the good of ARod"?

Regarding the "integrity of the game," were you equally as outraged by Aaron's (and a ton of other players in the 60s & 70s) PED use?  No.  Stop with this retarded argument.  You know it's disingenuous to try to equate greenies to steroids.
Good for Arod is good for the team. Unless you think the performance gained somehow doesn't count.

Why is it disingenuous? Two drugs, available by prescription, enhance performance beyond the body's natural level. Since the CBA has been revised the penalty for use of either is a suspension.

Your car analogy is false. I can explain how manslaughter is worse than speeding. Greenies are cheating just like steroids.
Greenies are cheating just like steroids.

As previously pointed out, the "steroid era" produced the six highest single-season individual home run performances in MLB history within a four year period.

Please show me the similar spike of record perfomances during the "greenie era".

I'll wait here for your answer.
Hank Aaron broke Babe Ruth's long standing HR record. Willie Mays hit over 500 home runs.

Also, aren't you ignoring the fact that pitchers took steroids as much as hitters? If steroids were the magic beans you insist they are, wouldn't the increased pitching performance balance out the increase in offensive performance?

Also #2, so taking an illegal drug to cheat/improve performance is ok as long as it doesn't help too much? Interesting.
Please explain to me how something achieved over a 20+ year career is a "spike" in performance.  Did Aaron or Mays hit around 500-600 of their home runs in a 3 or 4 year span because of greenies?

And you find nothing unusual or odd about Sosa's, McGwire's or Bonds' performances from 1998-2001?  They were playing on a level playing field with all the pitchers they faced in those four seasons?

And yes, I do think that illegals drugs should be viewed differently based on their impact on performance.  I care less about the small impact of greenies than I do about the larger impact of steroids.
Hitting the most home runs in the history of the game requires, among other things, the ability to focus day in and day out and have the energy to stay in the lineup all season. Illegal, performance enhancing amphetamines help with those things.

I find it just as likely (if not more)  that a live ball and pitching staffs diluted by expansion were responsible for the spike in offense. Sure, many of the hitters took steroids, but just as many of the pitchers also did.

How do you feel about HGH? There is no evidence that professional athletes gain any advantage by using HGH. So steroids>greenies>HGH?
5/13/2014 11:08 AM
BTW, the NFL suspends players for the entire season if caught "popping an occasional amphetamine pill" a 2nd time.   The NFL believes that "popping an occasional amphetamine pill" is on par with 'roiding.    And that's a league where big and strong is paramount to success.
5/13/2014 2:48 PM
I guess we can wrap this one up with a LOL@tecwrg for his "I'm OK with a little cheating but not a lot.   I'm not sure what constitutes a lot but I'll get back to you once I figure it out.   And, obviously, the NFL doesn't know **** if they think amphetamines are as beneficial in their power/speed game as steroids.  Stupid NFL.   I don't know how they stay in business" attitude.
5/13/2014 3:29 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 5/13/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
BTW, the NFL suspends players for the entire season if caught "popping an occasional amphetamine pill" a 2nd time.   The NFL believes that "popping an occasional amphetamine pill" is on par with 'roiding.    And that's a league where big and strong is paramount to success.
FWIW, they do the same thing for marijuana.  Which isn't exactly performance-enhancing.  
5/13/2014 3:34 PM
Pain management.   Illegal pain management.   Now, if you want to argue smoking a joint is better than downing Vicodin and vodka, feel free.  But there's still no denying that being alert and focused is good for playing sports. 
5/13/2014 6:01 PM
Let's get real here.  The vast majority of people who work for the Commissioners' Offices and Rule Committees for the major sports don't, realistically, care all that much about "the integrity of the game."  They're business people.  What they care about is perception and image.  Coffee is going to help your football performance far more than pot, but coffee isn't illegal.  There's a reason why the list of banned substances for any sport coincide so closely with the list of illegal substances in the United States.  Don't let your players get away with illegal activity, you make them look like better citizens, and you improve your sport's image.

The treatment of PEDs and other illegal drugs in baseball for decades highlights this point beautifully.  When the public didn't know about it, nobody gave a damn whether players wanted to use.  Players obviously knew.  Bud isn't an idiot.  He had to know.  Managers knew, owners knew.  But as long as fans didn't know, it didn't hurt the public perception of the game.  So let's get real.  MLB isn't legislating steroids, HGH, etc out of the game because they want to promote the integrity of the sport.  They're doing it because PEDs became a black eye, and in order to restore their reputation as the "wholesome sport" they had to aggressively handle the situation.  Same is basically true of the NFL.  Their big steroid era happened earlier, but it was overlooked for some time as well.  Until it started to look bad.
5/14/2014 8:15 AM
Of course it's about the money.   I'm not sure the fans care as much about PED as the media does.   PED is a story.   As a fan, I want to be entertained.   As I mentioned earlier, whiffs are at an all-time high.   That is low level action.   Do people think baseball is "slow" now?   Let the K rate continue to rise.
5/14/2014 8:59 AM
The K rate has risen because hitters have become greatly undisciplined over time due to the desire to swing for the fences.  The PED era, with the emphasis on the home run, is what created that mindset.  Now that home runs are down because PEDs have been curtailed, we still have the residual by-product of the excessive K's.  Hopefully, the next generation of players will adapt accordingly and become more disciplined with their approaches at the plate.
5/14/2014 9:08 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 5/14/2014 8:59:00 AM (view original):
The K rate has risen because hitters have become greatly undisciplined over time due to the desire to swing for the fences.  The PED era, with the emphasis on the home run, is what created that mindset.  Now that home runs are down because PEDs have been curtailed, we still have the residual by-product of the excessive K's.  Hopefully, the next generation of players will adapt accordingly and become more disciplined with their approaches at the plate.
I was going to write basically this if tec didn't.  +1
5/14/2014 9:09 AM
btw, if you want to raise HR totals, make every stadium like Yankee Stadium.  The Mets love it there.
5/14/2014 9:10 AM
That plays a part but it's not the only reason.   Pitchers throw harder and less.   Virtually every team has half a dozen guys who can bring it at 94-95,   They only face 3-4 batters.  Starters aren't expected to go 7-8 innings so they don't have to "pace" themselves.    And, with every talking head saying "Call the strike zone", the rate will increase if that happens.   I don't expect teams to change the way they use their pitchers so it will come down to the hitters adjusting.    However, with new metrics saying "An out's an out", I don't see that happening either.

It's going to be a problem. 
5/14/2014 9:15 AM
People are going to say "I miss the steroid era.   At least there was some scoring."

5/14/2014 9:20 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 5/14/2014 8:59:00 AM (view original):
The K rate has risen because hitters have become greatly undisciplined over time due to the desire to swing for the fences.  The PED era, with the emphasis on the home run, is what created that mindset.  Now that home runs are down because PEDs have been curtailed, we still have the residual by-product of the excessive K's.  Hopefully, the next generation of players will adapt accordingly and become more disciplined with their approaches at the plate.
I think teams/players understand that K's aren't any worse than any other outs and trying to avoid striking out results in less power.
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