All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > MLB: a bag of a**holes.
5/12/2014 10:29 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 5/12/2014 8:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 5/12/2014 2:40:00 PM (view original):
As a Yankee fan, you should care. The Yankees chances of remaining playoff relevant would have been much better with Arod at third instead of Solarte/Johnson/Sizemore going forward. Unless you buy Solarte's hot start as his true talent level.

If I were a Yankee fan I wouldn't be happy that MLB used illegal tactics to bust Arod.
I'm a Yankee fan, and I'm perfectly happy with how things have gone down regarding ARod.

Some things should be bigger than the game on the field.  Such as the integrity of the product being sold to the public.

MLB ****** up and sold us all a tainted product for years.  I'm glad that they're taking appropriate steps to clean up the game.  As far as the tactics used . . . as the saying goes, "you've got to break a couple of eggs to make an omelette".  If there's a problem of legality, let the judges and the lawyers sort it it.  Not some dipshit on teh interwebz.

Also a Yankee fan and also fine with how things have worked with ARod.   But for a different reason.   I have no problem with PED.   However, no one is bigger than the game.   I think ARod felt he was.   Being slapped down in front of the world was his just desserts for being a *****.

5/12/2014 11:24 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 5/12/2014 8:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 5/12/2014 2:40:00 PM (view original):
As a Yankee fan, you should care. The Yankees chances of remaining playoff relevant would have been much better with Arod at third instead of Solarte/Johnson/Sizemore going forward. Unless you buy Solarte's hot start as his true talent level.

If I were a Yankee fan I wouldn't be happy that MLB used illegal tactics to bust Arod.
I'm a Yankee fan, and I'm perfectly happy with how things have gone down regarding ARod.

Some things should be bigger than the game on the field.  Such as the integrity of the product being sold to the public.

MLB ****** up and sold us all a tainted product for years.  I'm glad that they're taking appropriate steps to clean up the game.  As far as the tactics used . . . as the saying goes, "you've got to break a couple of eggs to make an omelette".  If there's a problem of legality, let the judges and the lawyers sort it it.  Not some dipshit on teh interwebz.
So you're saying the ends justify the means? Doesn't that also apply for Arod? He was facing pitchers on PEDs, competing against other hitters on PEDs, and made the decision to "break a couple eggs" in order to help the Yankees win titles.

Regarding the "integrity of the game," were you equally as outraged by Aaron's (and a ton of other players in the 60s & 70s) PED use?
5/13/2014 5:57 AM
So you're saying the ends justify the means?  Yes.

Doesn't that also apply for Arod? He was facing pitchers on PEDs, competing against other hitters on PEDs, and made the decision to "break a couple eggs" in order to help the Yankees win titles.  
No.  Do you think Arod did what he did "for the good of the team", or did ARod do what he did "for the good of ARod"?

Regarding the "integrity of the game," were you equally as outraged by Aaron's (and a ton of other players in the 60s & 70s) PED use?  No.  Stop with this retarded argument.  You know it's disingenuous to try to equate greenies to steroids.
5/13/2014 8:00 AM
LOL.  Please tell me BL said ARod only took 'roids "for the good of the team".

Illegal drugs are illegal drugs.   Being more alert certainly doesn't make you play worse. 
5/13/2014 8:59 AM
My 5:57am post was quoting BL.

He seems to be equating greenies to steroids.

Much like how driving 40mph in a 35mph zone is equivalent to DUI resulting in vehicular manslaughter.  Both are breaking the law while driving a car, so they should be viewed and judged the same way.

5/13/2014 9:06 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 5/13/2014 5:58:00 AM (view original):
So you're saying the ends justify the means?  Yes.

Doesn't that also apply for Arod? He was facing pitchers on PEDs, competing against other hitters on PEDs, and made the decision to "break a couple eggs" in order to help the Yankees win titles.  
No.  Do you think Arod did what he did "for the good of the team", or did ARod do what he did "for the good of ARod"?

Regarding the "integrity of the game," were you equally as outraged by Aaron's (and a ton of other players in the 60s & 70s) PED use?  No.  Stop with this retarded argument.  You know it's disingenuous to try to equate greenies to steroids.
Good for Arod is good for the team. Unless you think the performance gained somehow doesn't count.

Why is it disingenuous? Two drugs, available by prescription, enhance performance beyond the body's natural level. Since the CBA has been revised the penalty for use of either is a suspension.

Your car analogy is false. I can explain how manslaughter is worse than speeding. Greenies are cheating just like steroids.
5/13/2014 9:35 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 5/13/2014 8:59:00 AM (view original):
My 5:57am post was quoting BL.

He seems to be equating greenies to steroids.

Much like how driving 40mph in a 35mph zone is equivalent to DUI resulting in vehicular manslaughter.  Both are breaking the law while driving a car, so they should be viewed and judged the same way.

Meh.  I obviously have a different opinion on PED use than you but illegal drugs are still illegal drugs.

Steroids allow you to get stronger, and the benefits that come with being stronger, if you're willing to put in the work. 
Amphetamines make you more alert and helps your ability to concentrate/focus. 

IMO, being stronger will help when playing the game of baseball.   Conversely, being alert and focused will also help when playing the game of baseball.    FWIW, I think the difference, which you may not see, is that the effects of PED increases your ability whereas dropping a couple of pills to keep you alert and focused prevents a decline in ability.    IOW, a .250 hitter who goes 1-4 with a massive hangover and two hours of sleep doesn't jump out at you if he gets a little "help" on that day.   On the other hand, a guy averaging 20 homers a season suddenly hitting 50 is a thing that makes you go "Hmmmmmmm?"

Now, as an example, say Mr.Hangover dropped a greenie every 4 games.   He no longer uses.  Instead of getting 150 hits while hopped up, he only gets 120.   Now he's a .200 hitter and on his way out.

Is the difference between 'roids and greenies that great?    Other than the fact that you have to bust your *** for one to work while the other takes effect if you have access to a glass of water to wash it down.
5/13/2014 9:44 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 5/12/2014 7:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 5/12/2014 5:14:00 PM (view original):
I prefer baseball clean. Was MLB right? No, they're ********. But I don't really care too much.

Professional sports has always operated under a different set of rules than any other business.  I'm ok with it.
I have to ask a couple of questions.

1.  Do you follow any other sports?
2.  Do you have the same "outrage" for PED in them?
1. Really?
2. I'm glad you put outrage in quotes because I'm clearly not outraged.  Yes, I'd want all the sports to be clean, but baseball seems to be the only major American sports league that is doing everything they can do clean it up.  It's always been funny to me when someone gets busted for roids in football, and then everyone forgets about it.
5/13/2014 9:51 AM
Well, I needed a baseline.   Like you, I find it odd that a guy will get busted in the NFL and it hardly makes the news.   In line with what I was addressing with tec, it seems like every DB in Seattle was busted for Adderall(which is loaded with amphetamine).    No one cares despite the obvious benefits of being alert and focused. 

MLB went after ARod like he was raping babies in the off-season for PED.
5/13/2014 10:00 AM
They did.  If you want to say they went too far, I won't disagree, but I like it better than not going far enough.
5/13/2014 10:11 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 5/13/2014 9:06:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 5/13/2014 5:58:00 AM (view original):
So you're saying the ends justify the means?  Yes.

Doesn't that also apply for Arod? He was facing pitchers on PEDs, competing against other hitters on PEDs, and made the decision to "break a couple eggs" in order to help the Yankees win titles.  
No.  Do you think Arod did what he did "for the good of the team", or did ARod do what he did "for the good of ARod"?

Regarding the "integrity of the game," were you equally as outraged by Aaron's (and a ton of other players in the 60s & 70s) PED use?  No.  Stop with this retarded argument.  You know it's disingenuous to try to equate greenies to steroids.
Good for Arod is good for the team. Unless you think the performance gained somehow doesn't count.

Why is it disingenuous? Two drugs, available by prescription, enhance performance beyond the body's natural level. Since the CBA has been revised the penalty for use of either is a suspension.

Your car analogy is false. I can explain how manslaughter is worse than speeding. Greenies are cheating just like steroids.
Greenies are cheating just like steroids.

As previously pointed out, the "steroid era" produced the six highest single-season individual home run performances in MLB history within a four year period.

Please show me the similar spike of record perfomances during the "greenie era".

I'll wait here for your answer.
5/13/2014 10:16 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 5/13/2014 10:11:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 5/13/2014 9:06:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 5/13/2014 5:58:00 AM (view original):
So you're saying the ends justify the means?  Yes.

Doesn't that also apply for Arod? He was facing pitchers on PEDs, competing against other hitters on PEDs, and made the decision to "break a couple eggs" in order to help the Yankees win titles.  
No.  Do you think Arod did what he did "for the good of the team", or did ARod do what he did "for the good of ARod"?

Regarding the "integrity of the game," were you equally as outraged by Aaron's (and a ton of other players in the 60s & 70s) PED use?  No.  Stop with this retarded argument.  You know it's disingenuous to try to equate greenies to steroids.
Good for Arod is good for the team. Unless you think the performance gained somehow doesn't count.

Why is it disingenuous? Two drugs, available by prescription, enhance performance beyond the body's natural level. Since the CBA has been revised the penalty for use of either is a suspension.

Your car analogy is false. I can explain how manslaughter is worse than speeding. Greenies are cheating just like steroids.
Greenies are cheating just like steroids.

As previously pointed out, the "steroid era" produced the six highest single-season individual home run performances in MLB history within a four year period.

Please show me the similar spike of record perfomances during the "greenie era".

I'll wait here for your answer.
Hank Aaron broke Babe Ruth's long standing HR record. Willie Mays hit over 500 home runs.

Also, aren't you ignoring the fact that pitchers took steroids as much as hitters? If steroids were the magic beans you insist they are, wouldn't the increased pitching performance balance out the increase in offensive performance?

Also #2, so taking an illegal drug to cheat/improve performance is ok as long as it doesn't help too much? Interesting.
5/13/2014 10:16 AM
Nah, HGWHD.   I just can't see the NFL or the NBA chasing down a star like that for PED.    It's just too completely different mindsets.   By the leagues and by the public. 

The Seahawks(including Richard Sherman, although it was overturned) have had 8-9 drug suspensions in the last three years.  Yet their "gritty" defense is the toast of the town.  It just doesn't "stick" like it does in MLB(excluding Big Papi who promised to "get to the bottom of this" and I haven't heard a word since about his failed test).
5/13/2014 10:34 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 5/13/2014 10:16:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 5/13/2014 10:11:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 5/13/2014 9:06:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 5/13/2014 5:58:00 AM (view original):
So you're saying the ends justify the means?  Yes.

Doesn't that also apply for Arod? He was facing pitchers on PEDs, competing against other hitters on PEDs, and made the decision to "break a couple eggs" in order to help the Yankees win titles.  
No.  Do you think Arod did what he did "for the good of the team", or did ARod do what he did "for the good of ARod"?

Regarding the "integrity of the game," were you equally as outraged by Aaron's (and a ton of other players in the 60s & 70s) PED use?  No.  Stop with this retarded argument.  You know it's disingenuous to try to equate greenies to steroids.
Good for Arod is good for the team. Unless you think the performance gained somehow doesn't count.

Why is it disingenuous? Two drugs, available by prescription, enhance performance beyond the body's natural level. Since the CBA has been revised the penalty for use of either is a suspension.

Your car analogy is false. I can explain how manslaughter is worse than speeding. Greenies are cheating just like steroids.
Greenies are cheating just like steroids.

As previously pointed out, the "steroid era" produced the six highest single-season individual home run performances in MLB history within a four year period.

Please show me the similar spike of record perfomances during the "greenie era".

I'll wait here for your answer.
Hank Aaron broke Babe Ruth's long standing HR record. Willie Mays hit over 500 home runs.

Also, aren't you ignoring the fact that pitchers took steroids as much as hitters? If steroids were the magic beans you insist they are, wouldn't the increased pitching performance balance out the increase in offensive performance?

Also #2, so taking an illegal drug to cheat/improve performance is ok as long as it doesn't help too much? Interesting.
Please explain to me how something achieved over a 20+ year career is a "spike" in performance.  Did Aaron or Mays hit around 500-600 of their home runs in a 3 or 4 year span because of greenies?

And you find nothing unusual or odd about Sosa's, McGwire's or Bonds' performances from 1998-2001?  They were playing on a level playing field with all the pitchers they faced in those four seasons?

And yes, I do think that illegals drugs should be viewed differently based on their impact on performance.  I care less about the small impact of greenies than I do about the larger impact of steroids.
5/13/2014 10:48 AM

What's the "acceptable level" of cheating in your book?

5% increase in performance?   10%?    20%?

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