Recruiting Question Topic

P.S. when we all get snarky with you is when you go on about how little you care about this game and why we are all wasting our time talking to you in the first place... may as well get used to that now, it won't change :( anyway, sorry about the grossly misinterpreted comment. id edit, but i suspect you already read it. that was a direct response to the not caring thing, not really intentional, its just how we work here, apparently...
4/25/2014 1:44 AM
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:37:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:28:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:06:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.
LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.
i love in and out burger. its the things not on the menu that make it so fun.

im not sure if you've ever been highly successful at any game in your life, but i can assure you, nothing works how you are suggesting. i mean sure, if you play, say, starcraft/broodwar (a cornerstone in the evolution of competitive gaming), you can look up the units, their damage, health, etc... but you sure as **** don't know all the good strategies. you also don't know all the nuances of all the special abilities and all that stuff. another example, bridge. all the rules are laid out. even blackwood and other complex signalling schemes used by world class bridge players are laid out for the common man. yet, the top players have wayyyyyyy more information about the game.

i do agree with you that the FAQ sucks and all that, but the forums here are a giant wealth of information. when you see new coaches ask for general advice, most responses acknowledge the great shortcomings of the FAQ and documentation, but commend the user base of mentors and forum-writers who help coaches in need, and suggest those users utilize those assets fully. you are absolutely right this game needs better documentation. it doesn't have it though. but on the other hand, you aren't just losing to top of the line players with a great wealth of information, you were probably in a world with scarcely over 100 humans and failed to place in the top 96. granted, you are totally right about that team, they were going to suck regardless, but most of the responders here would have had them sucking in the post season. you've also been told it takes 2 seasons to turn a team around, why you'd leave then after 2 seasons to take over a team with 11 openings (which is a horrible idea for almost everyone, especially new coaches), is beyond me. i get what you said, but if you really claim to do exactly what we suggest... you have no leg to stand on that one. its the worst move you could possibly make as a new coach, frustration wise. it sucks, but its the reality, and we all would have told you that and probably already told you most of that, less the exact specifics of how awful an idea picking up a team with ELEVEN openings was.

and yeah, we complain about seble... but he tells us about 10x more than old admin. it doesn't mean he doesn't communicate poorly, i actually think he communicates decently well just not frequently enough, but it also doesn't mean old admin wasn't WAY worse. he was, and that is commonly agreed upon here. old admin knew the game better, yes, but he also was deaf to suggestions and especially criticism, and had a very "let the players figure it out themselves or it ruins the mystery of the game" type of attitude. the guy may have been a genius, but that doesn't mean he shared a damn thing with us regular folks.

anyway this is all outside the point. you were saying about those players, the ones you did exactly what you were told but it didn't work out? and about that guy in your division? ...
Bridge is a terrible example. All the rules are laid out, all information is available that any other player would have on how to play and what it takes to win. There aren't any hidden cards or combinations of cards. 

I've read through quite a number of pages of the board but it seems like the important stuff was always left out and talked around. Even the aejones megapost never went into much detail on how to do what really matters.

Why did I leave after 2 seasons? Let me turn the question back around...what was the point of staying there for a third? I told you why I took over a team with 11 openings. $$. I wanted to have a lot to play with to be able to compete for recruits that would be fun to play with, and because that way you don't have to deal with crappy sim recruited players that are no good. Yeah that hasn't so much worked out, which is confusing because I've put enough effort in that it should have. I've seen coaches with less money and similar prestige get listed for more players sooner, obviously with less effort. That doesn't make any sense.
bridge is a great example. do you play? if not, go read some veteran level rules and guidelines. a lot of bridge isn't rules - you can open with a 2NT bid with ANY hand. but there are guidelines. these are disputed at great length but generally some semblance of consensus emerges. open 2NT with 6 spades and 14 points, and you are liable to be physically ejected from the premises. is it allowed by the rules? yes. does it mean you should do it? no. this is "information" - not rules, but information all the same, that a basic reader may not grasp simply by reading a set of information about bridge, regardless of how thorough that information is.

anyway, the point is, if you go read some veteran rules or some veteran strategy, and you don't play (or even if you know the basics), you won't know what the hell they are talking about. don't believe me? try it. this game is the same. pulldowns are touched on in incredible detail here in this thread, its really a great documentation of everything pulldowns. you just are not familiar with some of the other information that is implicit in the posts here. such as how every player has a concept of self-worth, and how that relates to you. or how prestige plays into who is available to you, the guys who start in your pool as well as who is available to be pulled down or drop down. maybe you know these things, i don't know, but if you don't FULLY understand them, as in, have experience and know it well enough to teach to someone else - that would make it rather hard to comprehend this thread. if you DO fully understand those things, i suspect you would agree with me how excellent and explanation of pulldowns this thread really is.
Heck no I don't play bridge. I'm not *that* old!

Your bridge example would only work if somehow you didn't know what the most valuable card (or hand, or whatever) is.

Every player has a concept of self-worth...lol whatever. Me thinks you give this game WAAAAAAAY too much credit. The guy I've been recruiting since Wednesday must have a highly variable sense of self-worth to drop me for a similar program that just walked in the door. prestige shouldn't play into who is available to you when no one is recruiting a guy. THEY HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS! And then once you put in the effort, a similar program at the same division level shouldn't be able to just waltz in with one flurry and make up a difference. That's just weak design.

The way you made it sound, no one FULLY understands what you're talking about or someone would be able to say in concrete terms exactly what you need to do in order to be considered. This is the flaw with the system as a whole...there really shouldn't be a distinction. Recruits aren't earmarked for D3, D2, D1, etc. Realistically, most players will consider high or mid-major D1 before anything, then low D1 and D2 are a little more interchangeable, and then between D2 and D3 there's some room for interchangeability as well, both in choices and in talent...a kid that's a D2 talent in Wisconsin may end up going D3 because it's cheaper, and because there aren't very many local D2 schools for him to choose from, and why not stay at home, go to Stevens Point or somewhere, and compete for a championship? It's not "oh, this guy is only ever going to consider D2 unless you put some insane amount of work. It doesn't typically work like that.


4/25/2014 1:53 AM
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:42:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:38:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:29:00 AM (view original):
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/25/2014 1:22:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:06:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.
LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.
The way you find the "special menu" is by playing around with the menu provided. Heaven forbid a patron can't distinguish all the nuances after their second season...whoops, I meant second visit.
You can go to In n Out 100 times and unless you see someone order off the special menu or someone tells you about it, you're not gonna know unless you have ESP or something. 
*hint* google...
That would be someone telling you about it. Someone had to write whatever you read to find it out. Not saying it's hard to find out, just saying you couldn't just go to the restaurant, order up, and understand from experience.

I'm actually one of those derelicts that doesn't like animal style though. 
i dont either. i like bread to soak up my grease. the forums here are the HD version of google. you could have searched for pulldowns and most likely found everything that has been said here. just saying... still waiting to give you that exact information you seemed so keen on earlier!!
Actually you couldn't. I've looked for it. There was a lot of discussion of it, but nothing even as detailed as this thread, not that I would really call that overly specific. But it is more than what I could find in several other discussions along similar lines. It was usually referred to but not really explained.
4/25/2014 1:55 AM
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:41:00 AM (view original):
no chance? he never said no chance he isn't going there. besides, nobody gives a crap about the real rules on home visits. remember the part about AUCTION STYLE RECRUITING? that can't work if you can only do 1 of everything now can it? lets stop arguing about reality and stick to arguing about HD.

back to this guy. he absolutely could still sign with you. you grossly misinterpret what falling off the list means. it means you need to spend more for him to sign with you - a lot more, relative to what you already spent (which may not be that much on an absolute scale). so, he didn't say what you are saying. 

if you really don't care, you wouldn't be here arguing with me. you said you didn't get good information. you have the most accomplished coach who frequents these forums here waiting to explain exactly where you went wrong, and you don't want the opportunity? don't ever suggest we didn't try to help you, then. its your choice. and like i said - the history page is sufficient. i can deduce the rest, most likely, i might have a follow up question but i severely doubt it. so just go ahead with the history page then, and of course, what you expected and why this doesn't lineup up with your expectations, so i can respond to those points specifically. it takes 5 seconds to copy the history page...
I don't really care beyond this recruiting season. It's not like learning after the fact is going to make me stay to deal with a shite team. Sorry if that bothers you.

And since that recruiting season isn't over, I thikn it's pretty silly to post what I've done considering I know there are people in D2 Rupp on this board and like you said, people may already be targeting me. 

I give a crap about the real rules. It's a shame that the person designing the game apparently doesn't know them. Auction style recruiting doesn't work, it's not reality, it's not how HD works no matter how you want to believe it does. If it did, I'd be in a lot better shape right now. You've even contradicted this yourself, talking about prestige and division and how apparently teams shouldn't try to recruit early. None of that suggests an auction system.
4/25/2014 2:01 AM
to avoid these ridiculous inlays (where is the quote last 2 button that is lacking on all forums in the world?), i'm responding to your 4/25/2014 1:53 AM about you being too old to play bridge. god damn it. now my font is all messed up.
OK thats better. my bridge example does work because you don't know what the most valuable card or hand is :) you can't read the instructions and tell me, its not obvious. you could say well its an ace, but it depends on the situation which and and it depends on the situation what the best hand is, it would only take you several paragraphs but maybe you could encapsulate most of it. what about the second or third most valuable card? many books could be written on that subject. what about which of two hands is better? there are a nearly infinite number of examples with no right or wrong answer to that very simple question. so bridge is a great example, but you don't really know, because you don't know the game. i can tell you for certain the bridge rules are as well documented as about any game in history, and if you went and read for a few hours, i could still talk to you about stuff and you'd not be able to follow it, even if you were naturally a really good card player. you'd get SOME of it, but frankly, without playing, you'd probably get a very low %. and im no bridge expert, just gifted at cards. i haven't even played in almost a decade (and for what its worth, i learned at 12, played some in my teens, never since - so i don't know about that not being that old stuff :) out of curiosity, what is another game (other than dolphin sim which i know nothing about) that you have mastered? any reasonably complex game i've ever played, whether its madden or sim city or an rpg like diablo 2, a card game like bridge or a RTS like starcraft, you never know all the things a veteran knows, simply by reading the manual. so im curious what games you've played (you know, substantial, not tic-tac-toe) that fit this model you wish this game followed? again, this game documentation sucks, but still.

you think i give this game too much credit? each player having a self worth is a fact, not my opinion. and again, its about the other guy putting in more effort. this is auction style recruiting. maybe you aren't familiar with auction style? it simply means he who pays the most, wins, and you have to be close to offering as much as the top guy to be in the race at that time. you can always up your ante and get in on the action. HD recruiting works *exactly* like that. this guy didn't drop you out of preference, out of self worth. the self worth thing affects what i told you it affects, who he considers and how much it takes to pull him down, and such. once he will let you recruit him straight up (home and campus visits allowed), his self worth DOES NOT play into the auction. only effort does, keeping in mind money != effort. so that is why you are no longer considered. i know its not realistic, but its completely normal in an auction style setting.

on the issue of what it takes to get considered, nobody can tell you exactly for every player, like that guy takes 1 HV and 5 phone calls but 1HV and 4 is not enough. that level of detail is not relevant. 1 HV + scholarship is enough to get most players who show up in your d2 search to consider you, and 2 HV + scholarship or 1CV + scholarship works for 100% of them. its no more complicated than that. this is normal - in other games, you can give facts that tell you how to get close to a line in the sand, but describing a line in the sand is generally very difficult. in bridge, any set of bridge guidelines has holes and shoddy explanations around boundary points, line in the sand points. for example, a 16, 20, or 21 point hand is not going to be explicitly bid one way or another, i mean at least 1 of those 3, in any set of bridge guidelines - at least none of the dozens i've seen. some include 16 or 20 or 21 in some of their guidelines, but none include them all. edge cases are tricky, that is the nature of edge cases. the 2HV guideline for 100% of players and 1HV for most should be all you need. and actually, at your prestige, 1HV is risky, so you best play it safe and go with 2HV or 1 CV. 



4/25/2014 2:11 AM
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 2:01:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:41:00 AM (view original):
no chance? he never said no chance he isn't going there. besides, nobody gives a crap about the real rules on home visits. remember the part about AUCTION STYLE RECRUITING? that can't work if you can only do 1 of everything now can it? lets stop arguing about reality and stick to arguing about HD.

back to this guy. he absolutely could still sign with you. you grossly misinterpret what falling off the list means. it means you need to spend more for him to sign with you - a lot more, relative to what you already spent (which may not be that much on an absolute scale). so, he didn't say what you are saying. 

if you really don't care, you wouldn't be here arguing with me. you said you didn't get good information. you have the most accomplished coach who frequents these forums here waiting to explain exactly where you went wrong, and you don't want the opportunity? don't ever suggest we didn't try to help you, then. its your choice. and like i said - the history page is sufficient. i can deduce the rest, most likely, i might have a follow up question but i severely doubt it. so just go ahead with the history page then, and of course, what you expected and why this doesn't lineup up with your expectations, so i can respond to those points specifically. it takes 5 seconds to copy the history page...
I don't really care beyond this recruiting season. It's not like learning after the fact is going to make me stay to deal with a shite team. Sorry if that bothers you.

And since that recruiting season isn't over, I thikn it's pretty silly to post what I've done considering I know there are people in D2 Rupp on this board and like you said, people may already be targeting me. 

I give a crap about the real rules. It's a shame that the person designing the game apparently doesn't know them. Auction style recruiting doesn't work, it's not reality, it's not how HD works no matter how you want to believe it does. If it did, I'd be in a lot better shape right now. You've even contradicted this yourself, talking about prestige and division and how apparently teams shouldn't try to recruit early. None of that suggests an auction system.
explain the contradiction? or does my last post clear that up? again, i am not going to argue reality with you. this game is unrealistic, and recruiting is grossly unrealistic, i've said that a hundred times, but beyond that, have no desire to debate HOW unrealistic the game is, or HOW grossly unrealistic recruiting is. can we leave it at that? you are asking how this game, HD, works - i am answering. no need to get off topic!

back to the contradiction. just because you have prestige and division playing into STRATEGY, that does not suggest the recruiting mechanism itself is at its core, a simple auction style recruiting system. a system system can lead to complex results, complex strategies. in fact, many people believe the best games are the ones with simple mechanisms or simple rules, that allow for sufficiently complex strategy. go is a great example. spades is a decently simple card game, but someone who isn't a great card player can play for 10 years and still fall light years short of grasping advanced strategy. so i totally reject your suggestion that just because what division you are in and what prestige you have affects STRATEGY, that the MECHANISM cant be simple auction style. its apples to oranges, not even the same discussion. what plays into the strategy says nothing about the underlying mechanism. its not my opinion that the mechanism of HD recruiting is auction style, that is a fact.

4/25/2014 2:18 AM (edited)
gonna have to change CBG to CDQ...


4/25/2014 2:15 AM
Well, if you don't tell us what you are doing then how............ooooohhhhhh, nicely played, just like the time you ranted relentlessly about depth charts & fatigue then refused to give any information about your depth chart & fatigue settings. Very clever, you almost had me for a second.
4/25/2014 2:20 AM
This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
etta, don't take this personally, but you divulging a minor amount of information about what you did is not important enough to crop up on the radar of other players in d2 rupp. even if they read it, unless you spend 10k of that 30k on one player, you are not really telling anything. you are a low prestige school recruiting less than exceptional players, you really aren't relevant in the realm of coaches who are highly strategic, who could use this against you. and again, if you spend in the realm of 5K or less on a player, its not really giving away anything meaningful anyway. so that is really a poor excuse.

besides, if it makes it better - its 2:26am, almost nobody is reading this anymore, well, let's hope not. post your history and ill look at it for a minute and then you can delete it. i won't quote it. and even if someone sees it, like i said, it really doesn't matter.
4/25/2014 2:27 AM
"just because you have prestige and division playing into STRATEGY, that does not suggest the recruiting mechanism itself is at its core, a simple auction style recruiting system. a system system can lead to complex results, complex strategies."

Actually it means exactly that. Auctions are ridiculously simple. If you're willing to commit the most resources (usually currency, but not always), you win. That's not the HD system, as you freely admit, but for some reason insist on calling it an auction anyway. 

Adding the word style to something doesn't automatically change an incorrect statement into a correct statement.
4/25/2014 2:28 AM
The most I'm at is about 6,000 on one player. That's a pulldown. 

The D-II players I haven't spent as much on because I more or less quit, but one of them I didn't get listed for even when the computer was the only competitor (and someone else with fewer open scholarships did), and the other I was listed for and then fell off almost immediately when another team with fewer scholarships and more considering recruits came in. That's particularly ridiculous IMO because there's no way a player should just forget about you when another mediocre program comes along. That's what really ****** me off, because that just makes no sense. 

I guess I could just wait until the end to take mediocre players to fill the roster, but then I'm just screwing whoever comes next by having to deal with trash recruits that were signed out of desperation. 
4/25/2014 2:32 AM
If I'm not relevant to other players, then why the hell are they on my recruits? 
4/25/2014 2:33 AM
Jeff, you are one of the smartest dudes I know, so you must be drunk. If he tells you what you are asking and you provide the answers he "seeks" he won't be able to be the martyr and tell everyone how much the game sucks and we are all ******** for not telling him exactly how to play it, except that if we try to do that he gets pissy because we treat him like a child. Would that I could, he'd get to go to his room for like ever.

Is it not telling that this is his first day with posting rights again and already everyone is an elitest ***** who only wants to belittle him and no one answers his questions, except for the literally dozens of posts by you and many others answering the damn question?

Maybe if we actually do treat him like he thinks he's being treated he really will just go the eff away. Or at least maybe he'll offer to meet one of us in an airport to presumably kick our *** and get banned from posting some more, maybe for good this time...
4/25/2014 6:11 AM (edited)
One of them has 3 open spots, and 4 players considering. How the hell can that guy have spent more than me?
4/25/2014 2:37 AM
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