Posted by dacj501 on 4/25/2014 12:59:00 AM (view original):
jeff, why even bother? i tried, but he is back on blocked. i am sure he wont care about that tho. i cant wait for this last season to run its course...

i have a huge flaw where i give people lots and lots of chances, always trying to see the good in them... or i am just crazy, both are equally likely. remember, colonels, furry_nips, and tmac_fan, and even that other dude, i forget his name, the really crazy one who came before etta but isn't so crazy anymore... those guys all got better eventually. and you have to admit - etta TRIED here, he was on good behavior for at least 1, maybe 2 pages. thats progress, however small. i don't know why i take a particular interest in trying to help those in most need of help who are the least looking for it, im sure there are a hundred things i could do with my own teams or the teams of anyone else who i am mentoring or something... or i could even get some work done! maybe i just like a good challenge? but most likely, its the crazy thing.

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.

LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.

i love in and out burger. its the things not on the menu that make it so fun.

im not sure if you've ever been highly successful at any game in your life, but i can assure you, nothing works how you are suggesting. i mean sure, if you play, say, starcraft/broodwar (a cornerstone in the evolution of competitive gaming), you can look up the units, their damage, health, etc... but you sure as **** don't know all the good strategies. you also don't know all the nuances of all the special abilities and all that stuff. another example, bridge. all the rules are laid out. even blackwood and other complex signalling schemes used by world class bridge players are laid out for the common man. yet, the top players have wayyyyyyy more information about the game.

i do agree with you that the FAQ sucks and all that, but the forums here are a giant wealth of information. when you see new coaches ask for general advice, most responses acknowledge the great shortcomings of the FAQ and documentation, but commend the user base of mentors and forum-writers who help coaches in need, and suggest those users utilize those assets fully. you are absolutely right this game needs better documentation. it doesn't have it though. but on the other hand, you aren't just losing to top of the line players with a great wealth of information, you were probably in a world with scarcely over 100 humans and failed to place in the top 96. granted, you are totally right about that team, they were going to suck regardless, but most of the responders here would have had them sucking in the post season. you've also been told it takes 2 seasons to turn a team around, why you'd leave then after 2 seasons to take over a team with 11 openings (which is a horrible idea for almost everyone, especially new coaches), is beyond me. i get what you said, but if you really claim to do exactly what we suggest... you have no leg to stand on that one. its the worst move you could possibly make as a new coach, frustration wise. it sucks, but its the reality, and we all would have told you that and probably already told you most of that, less the exact specifics of how awful an idea picking up a team with ELEVEN openings was.

and yeah, we complain about seble... but he tells us about 10x more than old admin. it doesn't mean he doesn't communicate poorly, i actually think he communicates decently well just not frequently enough, but it also doesn't mean old admin wasn't WAY worse. he was, and that is commonly agreed upon here. old admin knew the game better, yes, but he also was deaf to suggestions and especially criticism, and had a very "let the players figure it out themselves or it ruins the mystery of the game" type of attitude. the guy may have been a genius, but that doesn't mean he shared a damn thing with us regular folks.

anyway this is all outside the point. you were saying about those players, the ones you did exactly what you were told but it didn't work out? and about that guy in your division? ...

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:03:00 AM (view original):
im serious on the tell me exactly part... i can't speculate what others told you or what you think others told you, but if you tell me what you did, i absolutely can explain what you are seeing. there isn't always 1 option, but im happy to take the time to lay out all possibilities clearly.

i suspect if you re-read what i posted to you first, you will find it was not at all condescending or whatever you want to label my comments as - and more importantly, that your actions do not coincide with my comments. if you followed the 10 SV guidelines, ill refer you back to that same post. here it is, for your convenience. \

etta - to answer your original question, you know a player is pulled down when they will accept HVs or CVs. generally, this coincides with them considering you alone. the 10SV figure people throw around is misleading for a coach in your position, i think that is the problem. in d3 it takes slightly less than d2. in d2, for A+ schools, which is a normal situation for the posters here - 10SVs is usually sufficient to pull a player down. in d2, with lower prestige, this is rarely the case (especially outside the A range altogether). i have found 12-15 is usually the minimum for lower prestige schools, but i've also never coached C/D prestige d2 schools, so it could even be higher for those schools. my guess is its as simple as you need more SVs than the guidelines suggest, i think the guidelines here are generally misleading for lower prestige schools... in general i believe forum responses are written for consistent NT coaches with solid programs, trying to master the details or learn new strategies, to take it to the next level. not saying thats good or bad - just keep that in mind when reading, not all advice here is appropriate for a new coach, and rarely is it labelled as such.

lets skip the part where things descend into chaos for a page and why don't you tell me *exactly* what you are seeing, that doesn't line up with what you heard, and ill explain it to you? like i said, its very, very possible what you read what not appropriate for the situation you were in. its also possible the other person was wrong, or generalizing, or something else in which you still could have been doing exactly what someone else suggested. im not saying you did anything wrong, based on the information you were given. feel free to provide said information along with your actions and i can comment on both together. or, we can skip the BS and just get to what you actually did, and what you thought would happen, and what actually happened, and i can clarify. 

You don't have to speculate, it's right on the board. I don't know what happened each cycle because the history doesn't break it down like that. it breaks it down by day. 

I also feel like it would be a little foolish to say exactly what I've done on the board when recruiting is still going on. 

Your answer to the original question is circular. How do you know when they'll accept HVs or CVs unless you just happen to try it figuring you've put in enough effort? Seems like the same kind of trial and error that characterizes the actual pulldown answers re: number of SVs...people flatly saying it's 10 unless you're in a battle or something strange is happening. Yeah well I guess somethign strange is happening with everyone I recruit. I finally got one guy to consider me after almost double that amount. Whatever. I guess educating people isn't the audience, giving false information to the people that could actually use it is more the thing.

I agree that the guidelines are misleading. The FAQ doesn't actually have any guidelines. 

Rarely is information labeled at all, which leads to believe that it's broadly applicable. 

Exactly what I'm seeing is that the information that was given here was wrong, and that things aren't making sense. I can't even stay listed or get listed for my top two D-II targets even though I obviously have spent plenty. 

It's all a bunch of bull and I don't care anymore. I don't need clarification unless it's clarification on what is actually true and correct in the game and not lies. Clarification on how in one afternoon you can go from leading for a guy by yourself having put plenty of money into them, to not even be listed as considering. 

I guess I'll just hope some players drop down that I can get cheap. Pretty much the only hope at this point. The real fatal flaw is that the D-II recruiting pool doesn't have enough good players, just like the D-III one. It's like trying to find needles in haystacks to find serviceable players. There should be one recruiting pool for everyone, none of this pulldown foolishness. If the guy doesn't like your offer, if for some reason you're a D3 and you try to recruit Lebron James, then you just will be wasting your time. But you wouldn't have to deal with this ridiculous SV guessing game. Call the coach, and either he's willing to consider you now, may be in the future, or isn't at all. Simple. 

Maybe the recruiting overhaul will make that much sense. I kind of doubt it, because if that was in the offing, then such a screwed up system probably wouldn't have been created in the first place.

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dacj501 on 4/25/2014 12:59:00 AM (view original):
jeff, why even bother? i tried, but he is back on blocked. i am sure he wont care about that tho. i cant wait for this last season to run its course...

i have a huge flaw where i give people lots and lots of chances, always trying to see the good in them... or i am just crazy, both are equally likely. remember, colonels, furry_nips, and tmac_fan, and even that other dude, i forget his name, the really crazy one who came before etta but isn't so crazy anymore... those guys all got better eventually. and you have to admit - etta TRIED here, he was on good behavior for at least 1, maybe 2 pages. thats progress, however small. i don't know why i take a particular interest in trying to help those in most need of help who are the least looking for it, im sure there are a hundred things i could do with my own teams or the teams of anyone else who i am mentoring or something... or i could even get some work done! maybe i just like a good challenge? but most likely, its the crazy thing.

However small...I guess giving people chances to you is giving backhanded compliments. 

I was fine until i came back and someone was acting like I had never recruited a player before and generally was being condescending about responding and patting himself on the back for deigning to respond to such an ignorant noob.

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.

LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.

The way you find the "special menu" is by playing around with the menu provided. Heaven forbid a patron can't distinguish all the nuances after their second season...whoops, I meant second visit.

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dacj501 on 4/25/2014 12:59:00 AM (view original):
jeff, why even bother? i tried, but he is back on blocked. i am sure he wont care about that tho. i cant wait for this last season to run its course...

i have a huge flaw where i give people lots and lots of chances, always trying to see the good in them... or i am just crazy, both are equally likely. remember, colonels, furry_nips, and tmac_fan, and even that other dude, i forget his name, the really crazy one who came before etta but isn't so crazy anymore... those guys all got better eventually. and you have to admit - etta TRIED here, he was on good behavior for at least 1, maybe 2 pages. thats progress, however small. i don't know why i take a particular interest in trying to help those in most need of help who are the least looking for it, im sure there are a hundred things i could do with my own teams or the teams of anyone else who i am mentoring or something... or i could even get some work done! maybe i just like a good challenge? but most likely, its the crazy thing.

However small...I guess giving people chances to you is giving backhanded compliments. 

I was fine until i came back and someone was acting like I had never recruited a player before and generally was being condescending about responding and patting himself on the back for deigning to respond to such an ignorant noob.

lol... you are just trying to cheer me up at this point :)

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:18:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:03:00 AM (view original):
im serious on the tell me exactly part... i can't speculate what others told you or what you think others told you, but if you tell me what you did, i absolutely can explain what you are seeing. there isn't always 1 option, but im happy to take the time to lay out all possibilities clearly.

i suspect if you re-read what i posted to you first, you will find it was not at all condescending or whatever you want to label my comments as - and more importantly, that your actions do not coincide with my comments. if you followed the 10 SV guidelines, ill refer you back to that same post. here it is, for your convenience. \

etta - to answer your original question, you know a player is pulled down when they will accept HVs or CVs. generally, this coincides with them considering you alone. the 10SV figure people throw around is misleading for a coach in your position, i think that is the problem. in d3 it takes slightly less than d2. in d2, for A+ schools, which is a normal situation for the posters here - 10SVs is usually sufficient to pull a player down. in d2, with lower prestige, this is rarely the case (especially outside the A range altogether). i have found 12-15 is usually the minimum for lower prestige schools, but i've also never coached C/D prestige d2 schools, so it could even be higher for those schools. my guess is its as simple as you need more SVs than the guidelines suggest, i think the guidelines here are generally misleading for lower prestige schools... in general i believe forum responses are written for consistent NT coaches with solid programs, trying to master the details or learn new strategies, to take it to the next level. not saying thats good or bad - just keep that in mind when reading, not all advice here is appropriate for a new coach, and rarely is it labelled as such.

lets skip the part where things descend into chaos for a page and why don't you tell me *exactly* what you are seeing, that doesn't line up with what you heard, and ill explain it to you? like i said, its very, very possible what you read what not appropriate for the situation you were in. its also possible the other person was wrong, or generalizing, or something else in which you still could have been doing exactly what someone else suggested. im not saying you did anything wrong, based on the information you were given. feel free to provide said information along with your actions and i can comment on both together. or, we can skip the BS and just get to what you actually did, and what you thought would happen, and what actually happened, and i can clarify. 

You don't have to speculate, it's right on the board. I don't know what happened each cycle because the history doesn't break it down like that. it breaks it down by day. 

I also feel like it would be a little foolish to say exactly what I've done on the board when recruiting is still going on. 

Your answer to the original question is circular. How do you know when they'll accept HVs or CVs unless you just happen to try it figuring you've put in enough effort? Seems like the same kind of trial and error that characterizes the actual pulldown answers re: number of SVs...people flatly saying it's 10 unless you're in a battle or something strange is happening. Yeah well I guess somethign strange is happening with everyone I recruit. I finally got one guy to consider me after almost double that amount. Whatever. I guess educating people isn't the audience, giving false information to the people that could actually use it is more the thing.

I agree that the guidelines are misleading. The FAQ doesn't actually have any guidelines. 

Rarely is information labeled at all, which leads to believe that it's broadly applicable. 

Exactly what I'm seeing is that the information that was given here was wrong, and that things aren't making sense. I can't even stay listed or get listed for my top two D-II targets even though I obviously have spent plenty. 

It's all a bunch of bull and I don't care anymore. I don't need clarification unless it's clarification on what is actually true and correct in the game and not lies. Clarification on how in one afternoon you can go from leading for a guy by yourself having put plenty of money into them, to not even be listed as considering. 

I guess I'll just hope some players drop down that I can get cheap. Pretty much the only hope at this point. The real fatal flaw is that the D-II recruiting pool doesn't have enough good players, just like the D-III one. It's like trying to find needles in haystacks to find serviceable players. There should be one recruiting pool for everyone, none of this pulldown foolishness. If the guy doesn't like your offer, if for some reason you're a D3 and you try to recruit Lebron James, then you just will be wasting your time. But you wouldn't have to deal with this ridiculous SV guessing game. Call the coach, and either he's willing to consider you now, may be in the future, or isn't at all. Simple. 

Maybe the recruiting overhaul will make that much sense. I kind of doubt it, because if that was in the offing, then such a screwed up system probably wouldn't have been created in the first place.

hmm, you could ask how you could ascertain that information. here's how. history gives you exactly what you did in the order. frankly, thats all i need - go ahead and provide that. but in your emails from the recruits, you have a response to every action. you can tell the exactly time of every action from the emails from the recruit. however, the responses can be fairly garbled, so i suggest you look to the history page for insight into what you are looking at. i don't expect you (or any coach in HD, for that matter) to be able to look at a recruit response and say exactly which action yielded that response. you can say its too dangerous because recruiting blah blah blah, i suspect you have bigger problems at this point, lol. what you spent on 1 recruit is meaningless compared to that 30k budget, i am guessing. if you really want to know how it works, you have the best audience you could hope for... so fire away.

i already told you why you arent listed as being considered. the other guy put more effort in than you, and by a big enough margin that you aren't even considered anymore. for example, if you have 2 HVs and a scholarship, and the other guy puts in 10 HVs and a scholarship, you sure as **** won't show up anymore. the margin required is considerably less than that, but it is not currently known exactly what that margin is. its not particularly relevant either, suffice it to say, relative to what you put in, he put in a lot more. 

as far as the scouting trips to pull a guy down being more than 10 - yeah, i already told you that. in my first post to you, in fact - i said 12-15 was the minimum, but if you were in the C/D range, it was very possibly more. later i expanded and said around 14 minimum for C and 16 minimum for D, likely needing 5 more after. if you spent about double, that sounds, well, right about what im telling you. what you have to keep in mind is its so rare for us to coach C and D schools, and when we do, we ignore them because we can't stand how bad they suck and just half *** it till they are decent. so we don't know EXACTLY. but man, i gave you a pretty good range. it was a little conservative, i bet you can get SOME guys for less than 16 SVs. the other thing is, not all players are created equal. this is why some appear in d2, others in d1. some are better, and some CONSIDER themselves better. players have a perception of themselves, that is part of the game. that is why some guys in the d1 pool suck *** compared to guys in the d2 pool - they consider themselves hot **** even though they are ******* useless. lets skip over the possible jokes there and suffice it to say, this also affects the level of effort it requires schools at varying levels to put in, to 1) get guys to consider them, and 2) to get guys to the pulldown point. it also affects when they will drop to you. this is a concept built into just about everything in the game, really. it just so happens that the considering threshold is so low, you will very rarely notice this on your own, unless someone tells you (which is why i am telling you now).

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.

LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.

i love in and out burger. its the things not on the menu that make it so fun.

im not sure if you've ever been highly successful at any game in your life, but i can assure you, nothing works how you are suggesting. i mean sure, if you play, say, starcraft/broodwar (a cornerstone in the evolution of competitive gaming), you can look up the units, their damage, health, etc... but you sure as **** don't know all the good strategies. you also don't know all the nuances of all the special abilities and all that stuff. another example, bridge. all the rules are laid out. even blackwood and other complex signalling schemes used by world class bridge players are laid out for the common man. yet, the top players have wayyyyyyy more information about the game.

i do agree with you that the FAQ sucks and all that, but the forums here are a giant wealth of information. when you see new coaches ask for general advice, most responses acknowledge the great shortcomings of the FAQ and documentation, but commend the user base of mentors and forum-writers who help coaches in need, and suggest those users utilize those assets fully. you are absolutely right this game needs better documentation. it doesn't have it though. but on the other hand, you aren't just losing to top of the line players with a great wealth of information, you were probably in a world with scarcely over 100 humans and failed to place in the top 96. granted, you are totally right about that team, they were going to suck regardless, but most of the responders here would have had them sucking in the post season. you've also been told it takes 2 seasons to turn a team around, why you'd leave then after 2 seasons to take over a team with 11 openings (which is a horrible idea for almost everyone, especially new coaches), is beyond me. i get what you said, but if you really claim to do exactly what we suggest... you have no leg to stand on that one. its the worst move you could possibly make as a new coach, frustration wise. it sucks, but its the reality, and we all would have told you that and probably already told you most of that, less the exact specifics of how awful an idea picking up a team with ELEVEN openings was.

and yeah, we complain about seble... but he tells us about 10x more than old admin. it doesn't mean he doesn't communicate poorly, i actually think he communicates decently well just not frequently enough, but it also doesn't mean old admin wasn't WAY worse. he was, and that is commonly agreed upon here. old admin knew the game better, yes, but he also was deaf to suggestions and especially criticism, and had a very "let the players figure it out themselves or it ruins the mystery of the game" type of attitude. the guy may have been a genius, but that doesn't mean he shared a damn thing with us regular folks.

anyway this is all outside the point. you were saying about those players, the ones you did exactly what you were told but it didn't work out? and about that guy in your division? ...

Bridge is a terrible example. All the rules are laid out, all information is available that any other player would have on how to play and what it takes to win. There aren't any hidden cards or combinations of cards. 

I've read through quite a number of pages of the board but it seems like the important stuff was always left out and talked around. Even the aejones megapost never went into much detail on how to do what really matters.

Why did I leave after 2 seasons? Let me turn the question back around...what was the point of staying there for a third? I told you why I took over a team with 11 openings. $$. I wanted to have a lot to play with to be able to compete for recruits that would be fun to play with, and because that way you don't have to deal with crappy sim recruited players that are no good. Yeah that hasn't so much worked out, which is confusing because I've put enough effort in that it should have. I've seen coaches with less money and similar prestige get listed for more players sooner, obviously with less effort. That doesn't make any sense.

Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/25/2014 1:22:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.

LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.

The way you find the "special menu" is by playing around with the menu provided. Heaven forbid a patron can't distinguish all the nuances after their second season...whoops, I meant second visit.

You can go to In n Out 100 times and unless you see someone order off the special menu or someone tells you about it, you're not gonna know unless you have ESP or something. 

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:29:00 AM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/25/2014 1:22:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.

LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.

The way you find the "special menu" is by playing around with the menu provided. Heaven forbid a patron can't distinguish all the nuances after their second season...whoops, I meant second visit.

You can go to In n Out 100 times and unless you see someone order off the special menu or someone tells you about it, you're not gonna know unless you have ESP or something. 

*hint* google...

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:28:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.

LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.

i love in and out burger. its the things not on the menu that make it so fun.

im not sure if you've ever been highly successful at any game in your life, but i can assure you, nothing works how you are suggesting. i mean sure, if you play, say, starcraft/broodwar (a cornerstone in the evolution of competitive gaming), you can look up the units, their damage, health, etc... but you sure as **** don't know all the good strategies. you also don't know all the nuances of all the special abilities and all that stuff. another example, bridge. all the rules are laid out. even blackwood and other complex signalling schemes used by world class bridge players are laid out for the common man. yet, the top players have wayyyyyyy more information about the game.

i do agree with you that the FAQ sucks and all that, but the forums here are a giant wealth of information. when you see new coaches ask for general advice, most responses acknowledge the great shortcomings of the FAQ and documentation, but commend the user base of mentors and forum-writers who help coaches in need, and suggest those users utilize those assets fully. you are absolutely right this game needs better documentation. it doesn't have it though. but on the other hand, you aren't just losing to top of the line players with a great wealth of information, you were probably in a world with scarcely over 100 humans and failed to place in the top 96. granted, you are totally right about that team, they were going to suck regardless, but most of the responders here would have had them sucking in the post season. you've also been told it takes 2 seasons to turn a team around, why you'd leave then after 2 seasons to take over a team with 11 openings (which is a horrible idea for almost everyone, especially new coaches), is beyond me. i get what you said, but if you really claim to do exactly what we suggest... you have no leg to stand on that one. its the worst move you could possibly make as a new coach, frustration wise. it sucks, but its the reality, and we all would have told you that and probably already told you most of that, less the exact specifics of how awful an idea picking up a team with ELEVEN openings was.

and yeah, we complain about seble... but he tells us about 10x more than old admin. it doesn't mean he doesn't communicate poorly, i actually think he communicates decently well just not frequently enough, but it also doesn't mean old admin wasn't WAY worse. he was, and that is commonly agreed upon here. old admin knew the game better, yes, but he also was deaf to suggestions and especially criticism, and had a very "let the players figure it out themselves or it ruins the mystery of the game" type of attitude. the guy may have been a genius, but that doesn't mean he shared a damn thing with us regular folks.

anyway this is all outside the point. you were saying about those players, the ones you did exactly what you were told but it didn't work out? and about that guy in your division? ...

Bridge is a terrible example. All the rules are laid out, all information is available that any other player would have on how to play and what it takes to win. There aren't any hidden cards or combinations of cards. 

I've read through quite a number of pages of the board but it seems like the important stuff was always left out and talked around. Even the aejones megapost never went into much detail on how to do what really matters.

Why did I leave after 2 seasons? Let me turn the question back around...what was the point of staying there for a third? I told you why I took over a team with 11 openings. $$. I wanted to have a lot to play with to be able to compete for recruits that would be fun to play with, and because that way you don't have to deal with crappy sim recruited players that are no good. Yeah that hasn't so much worked out, which is confusing because I've put enough effort in that it should have. I've seen coaches with less money and similar prestige get listed for more players sooner, obviously with less effort. That doesn't make any sense.

bridge is a great example. do you play? if not, go read some veteran level rules and guidelines. a lot of bridge isn't rules - you can open with a 2NT bid with ANY hand. but there are guidelines. these are disputed at great length but generally some semblance of consensus emerges. open 2NT with 6 spades and 14 points, and you are liable to be physically ejected from the premises. is it allowed by the rules? yes. does it mean you should do it? no. this is "information" - not rules, but information all the same, that a basic reader may not grasp simply by reading a set of information about bridge, regardless of how thorough that information is.

anyway, the point is, if you go read some veteran rules or some veteran strategy, and you don't play (or even if you know the basics), you won't know what the hell they are talking about. don't believe me? try it. this game is the same. pulldowns are touched on in incredible detail here in this thread, its really a great documentation of everything pulldowns. you just are not familiar with some of the other information that is implicit in the posts here. such as how every player has a concept of self-worth, and how that relates to you. or how prestige plays into who is available to you, the guys who start in your pool as well as who is available to be pulled down or drop down. maybe you know these things, i don't know, but if you don't FULLY understand them, as in, have experience and know it well enough to teach to someone else - that would make it rather hard to comprehend this thread. if you DO fully understand those things, i suspect you would agree with me how excellent and explanation of pulldowns this thread really is.

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:32:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:18:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:03:00 AM (view original):
im serious on the tell me exactly part... i can't speculate what others told you or what you think others told you, but if you tell me what you did, i absolutely can explain what you are seeing. there isn't always 1 option, but im happy to take the time to lay out all possibilities clearly.

i suspect if you re-read what i posted to you first, you will find it was not at all condescending or whatever you want to label my comments as - and more importantly, that your actions do not coincide with my comments. if you followed the 10 SV guidelines, ill refer you back to that same post. here it is, for your convenience. \

etta - to answer your original question, you know a player is pulled down when they will accept HVs or CVs. generally, this coincides with them considering you alone. the 10SV figure people throw around is misleading for a coach in your position, i think that is the problem. in d3 it takes slightly less than d2. in d2, for A+ schools, which is a normal situation for the posters here - 10SVs is usually sufficient to pull a player down. in d2, with lower prestige, this is rarely the case (especially outside the A range altogether). i have found 12-15 is usually the minimum for lower prestige schools, but i've also never coached C/D prestige d2 schools, so it could even be higher for those schools. my guess is its as simple as you need more SVs than the guidelines suggest, i think the guidelines here are generally misleading for lower prestige schools... in general i believe forum responses are written for consistent NT coaches with solid programs, trying to master the details or learn new strategies, to take it to the next level. not saying thats good or bad - just keep that in mind when reading, not all advice here is appropriate for a new coach, and rarely is it labelled as such.

lets skip the part where things descend into chaos for a page and why don't you tell me *exactly* what you are seeing, that doesn't line up with what you heard, and ill explain it to you? like i said, its very, very possible what you read what not appropriate for the situation you were in. its also possible the other person was wrong, or generalizing, or something else in which you still could have been doing exactly what someone else suggested. im not saying you did anything wrong, based on the information you were given. feel free to provide said information along with your actions and i can comment on both together. or, we can skip the BS and just get to what you actually did, and what you thought would happen, and what actually happened, and i can clarify. 

You don't have to speculate, it's right on the board. I don't know what happened each cycle because the history doesn't break it down like that. it breaks it down by day. 

I also feel like it would be a little foolish to say exactly what I've done on the board when recruiting is still going on. 

Your answer to the original question is circular. How do you know when they'll accept HVs or CVs unless you just happen to try it figuring you've put in enough effort? Seems like the same kind of trial and error that characterizes the actual pulldown answers re: number of SVs...people flatly saying it's 10 unless you're in a battle or something strange is happening. Yeah well I guess somethign strange is happening with everyone I recruit. I finally got one guy to consider me after almost double that amount. Whatever. I guess educating people isn't the audience, giving false information to the people that could actually use it is more the thing.

I agree that the guidelines are misleading. The FAQ doesn't actually have any guidelines. 

Rarely is information labeled at all, which leads to believe that it's broadly applicable. 

Exactly what I'm seeing is that the information that was given here was wrong, and that things aren't making sense. I can't even stay listed or get listed for my top two D-II targets even though I obviously have spent plenty. 

It's all a bunch of bull and I don't care anymore. I don't need clarification unless it's clarification on what is actually true and correct in the game and not lies. Clarification on how in one afternoon you can go from leading for a guy by yourself having put plenty of money into them, to not even be listed as considering. 

I guess I'll just hope some players drop down that I can get cheap. Pretty much the only hope at this point. The real fatal flaw is that the D-II recruiting pool doesn't have enough good players, just like the D-III one. It's like trying to find needles in haystacks to find serviceable players. There should be one recruiting pool for everyone, none of this pulldown foolishness. If the guy doesn't like your offer, if for some reason you're a D3 and you try to recruit Lebron James, then you just will be wasting your time. But you wouldn't have to deal with this ridiculous SV guessing game. Call the coach, and either he's willing to consider you now, may be in the future, or isn't at all. Simple. 

Maybe the recruiting overhaul will make that much sense. I kind of doubt it, because if that was in the offing, then such a screwed up system probably wouldn't have been created in the first place.

hmm, you could ask how you could ascertain that information. here's how. history gives you exactly what you did in the order. frankly, thats all i need - go ahead and provide that. but in your emails from the recruits, you have a response to every action. you can tell the exactly time of every action from the emails from the recruit. however, the responses can be fairly garbled, so i suggest you look to the history page for insight into what you are looking at. i don't expect you (or any coach in HD, for that matter) to be able to look at a recruit response and say exactly which action yielded that response. you can say its too dangerous because recruiting blah blah blah, i suspect you have bigger problems at this point, lol. what you spent on 1 recruit is meaningless compared to that 30k budget, i am guessing. if you really want to know how it works, you have the best audience you could hope for... so fire away.

i already told you why you arent listed as being considered. the other guy put more effort in than you, and by a big enough margin that you aren't even considered anymore. for example, if you have 2 HVs and a scholarship, and the other guy puts in 10 HVs and a scholarship, you sure as **** won't show up anymore. the margin required is considerably less than that, but it is not currently known exactly what that margin is. its not particularly relevant either, suffice it to say, relative to what you put in, he put in a lot more. 

as far as the scouting trips to pull a guy down being more than 10 - yeah, i already told you that. in my first post to you, in fact - i said 12-15 was the minimum, but if you were in the C/D range, it was very possibly more. later i expanded and said around 14 minimum for C and 16 minimum for D, likely needing 5 more after. if you spent about double, that sounds, well, right about what im telling you. what you have to keep in mind is its so rare for us to coach C and D schools, and when we do, we ignore them because we can't stand how bad they suck and just half *** it till they are decent. so we don't know EXACTLY. but man, i gave you a pretty good range. it was a little conservative, i bet you can get SOME guys for less than 16 SVs. the other thing is, not all players are created equal. this is why some appear in d2, others in d1. some are better, and some CONSIDER themselves better. players have a perception of themselves, that is part of the game. that is why some guys in the d1 pool suck *** compared to guys in the d2 pool - they consider themselves hot **** even though they are ******* useless. lets skip over the possible jokes there and suffice it to say, this also affects the level of effort it requires schools at varying levels to put in, to 1) get guys to consider them, and 2) to get guys to the pulldown point. it also affects when they will drop to you. this is a concept built into just about everything in the game, really. it just so happens that the considering threshold is so low, you will very rarely notice this on your own, unless someone tells you (which is why i am telling you now).

Yeah I'm not going through every email. I don't even think I still have every email. 

I honestly don't give a crap because the hay's in the barn. If this class doesn't turn around I'm sunk and I'm not paying for another season, so there's really no point in trying to put in effort to understand all this foolishness. Suffice it to say, whoever made this system knows jack squat about real world basketball and recruiting. It's about as far as humanly possible from real world.

It doesn't make sense that someone would just say "nah no chance I'm going there now, I'm going to this other trash school in the same conference and not even considering this school that used to be my leader". That is just illogical. It's also illogical to be able to stack 10 home visits in one recruiting cycle. I think NCAA rules don't even allow that. Real world, a family would probably call the cops haha.

IIRC, there's a max on home visits, official campus visits, really there's a max on just about everything. Ironically, evaluations/neutral contacts are the only thing that are less unlimited...and of course in keeping with the apparent goal to make things as unrealistic as possible, they're given little value.

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:32:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:29:00 AM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/25/2014 1:22:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.

LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.

The way you find the "special menu" is by playing around with the menu provided. Heaven forbid a patron can't distinguish all the nuances after their second season...whoops, I meant second visit.

You can go to In n Out 100 times and unless you see someone order off the special menu or someone tells you about it, you're not gonna know unless you have ESP or something. 

*hint* google...

That would be someone telling you about it. Someone had to write whatever you read to find it out. Not saying it's hard to find out, just saying you couldn't just go to the restaurant, order up, and understand from experience.

I'm actually one of those derelicts that doesn't like animal style though. 

no chance? he never said no chance he isn't going there. besides, nobody gives a crap about the real rules on home visits. remember the part about AUCTION STYLE RECRUITING? that can't work if you can only do 1 of everything now can it? lets stop arguing about reality and stick to arguing about HD.

back to this guy. he absolutely could still sign with you. you grossly misinterpret what falling off the list means. it means you need to spend more for him to sign with you - a lot more, relative to what you already spent (which may not be that much on an absolute scale). so, he didn't say what you are saying. 

if you really don't care, you wouldn't be here arguing with me. you said you didn't get good information. you have the most accomplished coach who frequents these forums here waiting to explain exactly where you went wrong, and you don't want the opportunity? don't ever suggest we didn't try to help you, then. its your choice. and like i said - the history page is sufficient. i can deduce the rest, most likely, i might have a follow up question but i severely doubt it. so just go ahead with the history page then, and of course, what you expected and why this doesn't lineup up with your expectations, so i can respond to those points specifically. it takes 5 seconds to copy the history page...

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:32:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:29:00 AM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/25/2014 1:22:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 1:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.

LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.

The way you find the "special menu" is by playing around with the menu provided. Heaven forbid a patron can't distinguish all the nuances after their second season...whoops, I meant second visit.

You can go to In n Out 100 times and unless you see someone order off the special menu or someone tells you about it, you're not gonna know unless you have ESP or something. 

*hint* google...

That would be someone telling you about it. Someone had to write whatever you read to find it out. Not saying it's hard to find out, just saying you couldn't just go to the restaurant, order up, and understand from experience.

I'm actually one of those derelicts that doesn't like animal style though. 

i dont either. i like bread to soak up my grease. the forums here are the HD version of google. you could have searched for pulldowns and most likely found everything that has been said here. just saying... still waiting to give you that exact information you seemed so keen on earlier!!