Recruiting Question Topic

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 12:02:00 AM (view original):
What the hell, now a guy that I was listed for just dropped me from his considering list.

F this noise. I was leading for him and a team from the same conference, same prestige comes in and he just drops me? I'm pretty much done. This exercise has really proven to me that this game really isn't worth my time and effort. None of this makes sense. The pulldown thing is so murky that even veterans can't explain it worth a crap, and now guys that aren't even pulldowns just drop me because someone else htat doesn't have any better of a team comes along. 

Not sure what I'm supposed to do with this. Might help if there was an FAQ that was worth a crap, but then I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise.
...and our descent into madness begins once again.
4/25/2014 12:32 AM
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Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/25/2014 12:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 12:02:00 AM (view original):
What the hell, now a guy that I was listed for just dropped me from his considering list.

F this noise. I was leading for him and a team from the same conference, same prestige comes in and he just drops me? I'm pretty much done. This exercise has really proven to me that this game really isn't worth my time and effort. None of this makes sense. The pulldown thing is so murky that even veterans can't explain it worth a crap, and now guys that aren't even pulldowns just drop me because someone else htat doesn't have any better of a team comes along. 

Not sure what I'm supposed to do with this. Might help if there was an FAQ that was worth a crap, but then I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise.
...and our descent into madness begins once again.
Great post, would read again.
4/25/2014 12:34 AM
indeed. its unfair to complain we are not being concrete enough, and then when we cut it up in response, suggest we think you are an idiot or don't respect you or whatever, by trying to give you a more thorough and simple explanation. THATS WHAT YOU ASKED FOR!! come on man... 20 people here try to give you good information... if you'd rather quit, just stop wasting everyone's time. if not, you have to exhibit some good faith and actually test out what we tell you. i'd suggest you find a mentor via sitemail if you weren't banned for abuse... its going to be harder to get the EXACT details here on the forums than if you have a mentor who can talk your specific situation to a T over time as you evolve. but you can still get the information. i mean jesus, the rest of us managed to figure it out, if this forum was all veterans going around lying about how everything worked, how, may i ask, would we have all gotten there? it just makes no sense...
4/25/2014 12:35 AM
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 12:33:00 AM (view original):
So I "start with the basics" and lose out to the veterans. Sounds great.

I thought the point was to try to compete and win, not to genuflect to veterans and their secret strategies.

I love how this has turned into how I'm stupid and don't deserve to try to go for the quality of players htat I could actually win with. You talk about my attitude and you come off with such a haughty, better-than-you attitude with every single post. How dare a folkin noob actually try to win the way the veterans do! Sacrilege!

I'm not "still trying ot grasp basics". I'm trying to crack the code to things that frankly have been couched in secrecy, and now I see why.
you are trying ultra high risk stuff THAT YOU DONT NEED TO WIN. i don't know how to make that any clearer. there is PLENTY you can do and be VERY successful just with the basics.

nobody is saying to just suck forever and avoid the complex risks this game has to offer. we are saying get half way decent at the simple, low risk high reward stuff first. thats common sense. when someone starts to roller skate, do you toss them roller blades and give them a ramp and some homeless guys to jump over? no. can they compete with the veterans just slowly pushing around on roller skates? no. but they CAN get from point A to B and thats a start. this is how *everything in life* works. i don't know why you degenerate our conversations to this menial BS when we could be explaining how this game works to you.

you got plenty of solid answers from everyone, myself included, but your endless whining about how unfair this game is leads one to seek alternate solutions. if you cant figure out pulldowns - but you haven't even made the losers tournament yet (the PIT), well maybe you should start somewhere more simple. thats not treating you like you are less than me somehow. thats called trying to help. i mentor a lot of guys. i don't have them all go in balls-out crazy in recruiting right when we start! actually, i don't have ANY of them do that! i slowly introduce risky tactics and make sure they want the risks before we take them. if they are barely making the NT, we don't take their b prestige d1 school and go battle the a+ school next door, even though i am crazy enough to try that with my own teams. you are simply being unreasonable, its not unreasonable at all for me to try to steer you in a direction that is more appropriate. for gods sake, you sent a guy in your division 10 scouting trips! if you play another few months, you will know how ignorant that is. not stupid - ignorant - as in you don't know any better, but if you did, it would be exceedingly obvious that was the wrong choice. look, its no more complicated than this. you asked a veteran question, got veteran answers, from LOTS of coaches - we aren't all out to get you. it was a little over your head, as it should be when you never even made the post season. you should be asking how to recruit guys in your division, what makes players good, that kind of stuff. thats what new coaches who turn into moderately successful coaches and then veteran coaches do, and there's nothing wrong with it. im sorry you aren't the super genius savant you want yourself to be who can just pick up anything and instantly master it. guess what, the rest of us aren't either... join the club and let's move on.

4/25/2014 12:43 AM (edited)
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:31:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 12:23:00 AM (view original):
Well I have one season left paid for so I could either do another season at Marietta and leave just in time to see my team be good (it's already rated basically on par or better with everyone in the conference except John Carroll), or try something else for a year and maybe it would be more interesting. I also wasn't interested in another year of dealing with idiots on the OAC coaches corner.

I know you all don't like people saying this but your post is insultingly simplistic. Even at that, i reject it. Recruiting is not auction style, otherwise I'd be leading for more guys because I have more money, more than some of them could possibly have spent. I felt like yo uhad some respect for me and then you throw out that garbage that suggests that you think I know nothing. I did manage to get some pretty good players in D3 despite not managing to successfully pull anyone down there either.

I feel like if it can be done in the game., then it should be in the book how to do it. Level playing field. But it appears some veterans want to keep that info for themselves while giving the impression that they're trying to help but not really answering the questions. 
this is so far off base. it IS simple auction style. dollars != effort, thats something you must learn early. if you haven't yet, now is a good time to start. you mentioned using 10 SVs on a guy in your division - terrible move - CVs and HVs are the cost effective tools, compared to SVs and calls/letters. these are the kind of basics you should have mastered in d3 before worrying about pulldowns - which - for the record - work as described. like i explained already, you have to consider the target audience when you read a response, like we all have to do with everything else in life - which is not someone who can't even make the post season in d3, not when they ask a question about THE MOST complex and risky part of recruiting (even though its not that complex if you get the hang of it, the complexity is strategy side, not mechanics side). every single coach who responded has pulled down many players using scholarship + scouting trips. thats how it works, we are not all lying to you. i never took you for a guy who wants to be spoon fed to the utmost degree. you say you don't like simple answers - yet you ask for exact explanations to the T of how things work! it makes no sense. ill give you the scale. top of d2, 10SVs pulls down most players. B range, 12 is a good start. C range, 14. D range, 16. you may always need 5 more, and 5% of the time things are crazy and complex and therefore you might have to try this twice to make it work (but probably not). is that 100% accurate? no, but its pretty damn close. you are too smart to need more than that to figure it out. so go figure it out already... 
More haughtiness. I did manage to recruit players for two seasons. Obviously I know what "effort" is.

The guy I used the SVs on was rejecting anything else. So not sure what I'm supposed to do there. He was in -state kid, no reason he should have been so turned off and the only team on him at the time was a computer team that wasn't very good.

The target audience should be everyone, not the veteran community that obviously has the game already figured out. 

I didn't make the postseason because I had only been with the team 2 years. Even people here said that I was pretty much resigned to that. Now the narrative is changing to it was my fault I couldn't overpower the effect of IQ and a lack of available scholarships? Whatever.

Yeah well I put out the number of scouting trips they said to and the scholarship and I didn't get anything. Why? Because they lied and it takes way more than they said, which if I hadn't been lied to might indeed have changed my strategy. Now I'm pretty much screwed. 

Way to flatter me at the end after spending a whole post calling me stupid. Apparently you think I'm stupid enough to fall for that too. Well, I'm not. None of this is to do with stupidity. It's all to do with asymmetric, misleading, and outright false information, coupled with a poor recruiting routine that is neither realistic nor sensible (and if you weren't going for ease of use, why would you diverge from realism?). 

I was hoping to use the money I had to put together a team that could at least be decent in 1 year with upperclassmen and the like. Not even sure I'm going to be able to fill out the roster now because I used incorrect and misleading information. Not sure how that comes back to being I'm stupid and don't understand the basics of the game. 
4/25/2014 12:41 AM
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Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 12:34:00 AM (view original):
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/25/2014 12:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 12:02:00 AM (view original):
What the hell, now a guy that I was listed for just dropped me from his considering list.

F this noise. I was leading for him and a team from the same conference, same prestige comes in and he just drops me? I'm pretty much done. This exercise has really proven to me that this game really isn't worth my time and effort. None of this makes sense. The pulldown thing is so murky that even veterans can't explain it worth a crap, and now guys that aren't even pulldowns just drop me because someone else htat doesn't have any better of a team comes along. 

Not sure what I'm supposed to do with this. Might help if there was an FAQ that was worth a crap, but then I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise.
...and our descent into madness begins once again.
Great post, would read again.
thanks yo, much appreciated.
4/25/2014 12:44 AM
go into detail on both the guy who was in your division who rejected everything else, and the guys you tried to pulldown, and ill tell you plain and simple what happened.
4/25/2014 12:45 AM
Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 12:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:35:00 AM (view original):
indeed. its unfair to complain we are not being concrete enough, and then when we cut it up in response, suggest we think you are an idiot or don't respect you or whatever, by trying to give you a more thorough and simple explanation. THATS WHAT YOU ASKED FOR!! come on man... 20 people here try to give you good information... if you'd rather quit, just stop wasting everyone's time. if not, you have to exhibit some good faith and actually test out what we tell you. i'd suggest you find a mentor via sitemail if you weren't banned for abuse... its going to be harder to get the EXACT details here on the forums than if you have a mentor who can talk your specific situation to a T over time as you evolve. but you can still get the information. i mean jesus, the rest of us managed to figure it out, if this forum was all veterans going around lying about how everything worked, how, may i ask, would we have all gotten there? it just makes no sense...
WHAT PART OF I HAVE BEEN DOING WHAT YOU ALL SAY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? That's probably where I screwed up is that I did take what people said and think that it was actually right.

I don't see why you can't give details here, unless you're afraid of everyone having the same information.

Yes you all that have been playing for years figured it out, at a time where there was more interaction with the people designing the game as well. You're gods. Awesome. What good does that do people that weren't around then?

I had such a mentor and really it didn't help very much. Still ended up getting led down cul-de-sacs. 

the stupid thing you don't realize is i more openly and freely and frequently share information i have about this game with the community than any other coach in the history of the game. its probably not even close at this point, over the sum of the history of HD. at least in my time (7 years), some guys like OR were super vocal back in the day. barking up the wrong tree. again, tell me *exactly* what you did - i mean exact actions at which point in recruiting, like cycle 3 - scholarship + CV; cycle 4 - 5 SVs - etc - and i will tell you exactly what you are missing. its impossible to tell you exactly what you are missing without knowing exactly what you did.
4/25/2014 12:55 AM (edited)
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.
4/25/2014 12:53 AM
jeff, why even bother? i tried, but he is back on blocked. i am sure he wont care about that tho. i cant wait for this last season to run its course...
4/25/2014 12:59 AM
im serious on the tell me exactly part... i can't speculate what others told you or what you think others told you, but if you tell me what you did, i absolutely can explain what you are seeing. there isn't always 1 option, but im happy to take the time to lay out all possibilities clearly.

i suspect if you re-read what i posted to you first, you will find it was not at all condescending or whatever you want to label my comments as - and more importantly, that your actions do not coincide with my comments. if you followed the 10 SV guidelines, ill refer you back to that same post. here it is, for your convenience. \

etta - to answer your original question, you know a player is pulled down when they will accept HVs or CVs. generally, this coincides with them considering you alone. the 10SV figure people throw around is misleading for a coach in your position, i think that is the problem. in d3 it takes slightly less than d2. in d2, for A+ schools, which is a normal situation for the posters here - 10SVs is usually sufficient to pull a player down. in d2, with lower prestige, this is rarely the case (especially outside the A range altogether). i have found 12-15 is usually the minimum for lower prestige schools, but i've also never coached C/D prestige d2 schools, so it could even be higher for those schools. my guess is its as simple as you need more SVs than the guidelines suggest, i think the guidelines here are generally misleading for lower prestige schools... in general i believe forum responses are written for consistent NT coaches with solid programs, trying to master the details or learn new strategies, to take it to the next level. not saying thats good or bad - just keep that in mind when reading, not all advice here is appropriate for a new coach, and rarely is it labelled as such.



lets skip the part where things descend into chaos for a page and why don't you tell me *exactly* what you are seeing, that doesn't line up with what you heard, and ill explain it to you? like i said, its very, very possible what you read what not appropriate for the situation you were in. its also possible the other person was wrong, or generalizing, or something else in which you still could have been doing exactly what someone else suggested. im not saying you did anything wrong, based on the information you were given. feel free to provide said information along with your actions and i can comment on both together. or, we can skip the BS and just get to what you actually did, and what you thought would happen, and what actually happened, and i can clarify. 

4/25/2014 1:03 AM
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 12:53:00 AM (view original):
P.S. old admin never talked to us like seble does... barking up the wrong tree on that one again. plenty of coaches, like tianyi who just gave an interview for being remarkably successful, started after seble came around, and have had great success. so that's definitely not it.
LOL what do you mean like Seble does? Had been silent until like a week ago. You all were complaining about it when I was on before. So yeah...not buying that one.

Bottom line is some people have been playing a lot longer and have a lot more information. Not news there. Thing is, they shouldn't. The reason they do is because the site instructions on the game are extremely inadequate. It's like going to In n Out Burger or something. Only you can leave there satisfied even if you didn't know about the special menu.

If you don't know the special menu here, you get beat by people that do. There's not much satisfaction in that.

Whatever, so I wasted some money. Not the first time, probably won't be the last.
4/25/2014 1:06 AM
Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 1:03:00 AM (view original):
im serious on the tell me exactly part... i can't speculate what others told you or what you think others told you, but if you tell me what you did, i absolutely can explain what you are seeing. there isn't always 1 option, but im happy to take the time to lay out all possibilities clearly.

i suspect if you re-read what i posted to you first, you will find it was not at all condescending or whatever you want to label my comments as - and more importantly, that your actions do not coincide with my comments. if you followed the 10 SV guidelines, ill refer you back to that same post. here it is, for your convenience. \

etta - to answer your original question, you know a player is pulled down when they will accept HVs or CVs. generally, this coincides with them considering you alone. the 10SV figure people throw around is misleading for a coach in your position, i think that is the problem. in d3 it takes slightly less than d2. in d2, for A+ schools, which is a normal situation for the posters here - 10SVs is usually sufficient to pull a player down. in d2, with lower prestige, this is rarely the case (especially outside the A range altogether). i have found 12-15 is usually the minimum for lower prestige schools, but i've also never coached C/D prestige d2 schools, so it could even be higher for those schools. my guess is its as simple as you need more SVs than the guidelines suggest, i think the guidelines here are generally misleading for lower prestige schools... in general i believe forum responses are written for consistent NT coaches with solid programs, trying to master the details or learn new strategies, to take it to the next level. not saying thats good or bad - just keep that in mind when reading, not all advice here is appropriate for a new coach, and rarely is it labelled as such.



lets skip the part where things descend into chaos for a page and why don't you tell me *exactly* what you are seeing, that doesn't line up with what you heard, and ill explain it to you? like i said, its very, very possible what you read what not appropriate for the situation you were in. its also possible the other person was wrong, or generalizing, or something else in which you still could have been doing exactly what someone else suggested. im not saying you did anything wrong, based on the information you were given. feel free to provide said information along with your actions and i can comment on both together. or, we can skip the BS and just get to what you actually did, and what you thought would happen, and what actually happened, and i can clarify. 

masochist...
4/25/2014 1:06 AM
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