All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > The 43 guys ranked ahead of Derek Jeter by BA
2/14/2014 8:20 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 2/13/2014 9:41:00 PM (view original):
Say this out loud:

"I think Martinez walked a great deal and that's a bad thing, but I think his walk rate was perfectly acceptable."
'I think Martinez walked a lot and, given his role on his team, I'd have liked him to have taken a more aggressive approach at the plate. Swing the bat and quit passing the opportunity to score on to lesser hitters like Russ Davis, Dan Wilson, Jay Buhner, etc, etc.    I wouldn't know his walk rate if badluck hadn't incessantly mentioned it over and over and over again.  Like a child begging for someone to notice his crayon drawing on the fridge."

Yeah, that makes plenty of sense.

2/14/2014 9:00 AM
"given his role on the team"

That's the key phrase to this whole argument, and I can't believe it's still going on.   EM's job, as a cleanup hitter, was to drive in runs.  If he has a high OBP, and he did, that's a bonus.  I think, and this is just my opinion,  everybody with an interest in Seattle during that time, would have sacrificed a little bit of AVG and OBP for more RBI.  From 1995-2001, he averaged 110 RBI per season and ranked anywhere from 1st (00) to 36th (99).  Given how good a hitter he was, theguys hitting in front of him, and the era he played in, his RBI total should have been higher.  Again, that's just my opinion and I really didn't watch a lot of Mariner games then and still don't now.  To provide a real example that I am more familiar with, I am a Phillies fan.  I have had the pleasure (and there's some sarcasm there) of watching Ryan Howard for the last 8 or 9 years.  He has always struck out a ton and only had 2 years, 06 and 07, where he had a really good OBP.  Nobody cared b/c he was hitting 45 HR and driving in 145.  He was the cleanup hitter and his job was to drive in runs.  As long as he was doing that, nobody cared if he hit .250/.340.  It was a bonus in 06 and 07 when he had an OBP around .400.

Now, I believe that EM would have been better served hitting in front of Rodriguez and Griffey.  I think he was much better suited as a 2 or 3 hitter than a 4 or 5 hitter, but that is just me going off of the stats that I can see and the limited memory I have of watching him play
2/14/2014 9:10 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/14/2014 8:20:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/13/2014 9:41:00 PM (view original):
Say this out loud:

"I think Martinez walked a great deal and that's a bad thing, but I think his walk rate was perfectly acceptable."
'I think Martinez walked a lot and, given his role on his team, I'd have liked him to have taken a more aggressive approach at the plate. Swing the bat and quit passing the opportunity to score on to lesser hitters like Russ Davis, Dan Wilson, Jay Buhner, etc, etc.    I wouldn't know his walk rate if badluck hadn't incessantly mentioned it over and over and over again.  Like a child begging for someone to notice his crayon drawing on the fridge."

Yeah, that makes plenty of sense.

Almost all elite hitters walk a lot. That's the problem with your specific argument. You're holding it against Martinez for walking 14% of the time in front of Buhner but not holding it against Mantle for walking in front of Elston Howard.

Instead of a logical argument, it looks like you're searching for a reason to say no to Martinez. Which is dumb, there are much better arguments against him available.
2/14/2014 9:43 AM
The argument essentially is that Martinez was too selective.  There's no evidence that supports that.  You can say "I'm sure there were x times when he took a pitch in a big spot that he could have driven, leading to an RBI," and in the same light, I'm sure there were times he swung at a pitch he could not drive in a big spot, leading to an out, where he would have ultimately worked out a walk.  It goes both ways.

Also, there's no evidence he's more or less selective than any other borderline HOF slugger.  So I fully expect you to make the same argument for those guys when the time comes. 
2/14/2014 9:50 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 2/13/2014 1:05:00 PM (view original):
There are only two guys I'd take on that list over Jeter - Piazza and Manny.
You forgot to mention Chipper Jones.
2/14/2014 10:00 AM
Don't worry about that idot named MikeT23.  He's a crank and a fool and everyone knows it.  My personal, #1 WIS highlight was slapping him around one of these message boards so bad they the Great MikeT23 whined like a baby to admin.  True story...

If the goal is to make the fool twist and squirm, I can get behind that.

If the goal is to make the fool admit he is fool, well, he won't.  Then again, there really is no need because everyone knows MikeT23 is crazy, Ted Kacynski crazy.  He's hold up somewhere with multiple windows open on his monitor looking for any chat board activity so he can pretend he matters to someone.

Nuff Ced...

2/14/2014 10:11 AM (edited)
Posted by 05nomar05 on 2/14/2014 9:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/13/2014 1:05:00 PM (view original):
There are only two guys I'd take on that list over Jeter - Piazza and Manny.
You forgot to mention Chipper Jones.
I think I'd probably take Jeter, but they're close.
2/14/2014 10:10 AM
Posted by SpotSell on 2/14/2014 10:00:00 AM (view original):
Don't worry about that idot named MikeT23.  He's a crank and a fool and everyone knows it.  My personal, #1 WIS highlight was slapping him around one of these message boards so bad they the Great MikeT23 whined like a baby to admin.  True story...

If the goal is to make the fool twist and squirm, I can get behind that.

If the goal is to make the fool admit he is fool, well, he won't.  Then again, there really is no need because everyone knows MikeT23 is crazy, Ted Kacynski crazy.  He's hold up somewhere with multiple windows open on his monitor looking for any chat board activity so he can pretend he matters to someone.

Nuff Ced...

Oddly, I don't recall whining to ADMIN about you(or anyone for that matter).  I don't even remember an argument with you.   Guess it meant more to you than it did me.  Wanna clue me in?

And, if you're going to call someone an "idiot", it carries a little more weight if you spell it right. 
2/14/2014 10:11 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 2/14/2014 9:10:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/14/2014 8:20:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/13/2014 9:41:00 PM (view original):
Say this out loud:

"I think Martinez walked a great deal and that's a bad thing, but I think his walk rate was perfectly acceptable."
'I think Martinez walked a lot and, given his role on his team, I'd have liked him to have taken a more aggressive approach at the plate. Swing the bat and quit passing the opportunity to score on to lesser hitters like Russ Davis, Dan Wilson, Jay Buhner, etc, etc.    I wouldn't know his walk rate if badluck hadn't incessantly mentioned it over and over and over again.  Like a child begging for someone to notice his crayon drawing on the fridge."

Yeah, that makes plenty of sense.

Almost all elite hitters walk a lot. That's the problem with your specific argument. You're holding it against Martinez for walking 14% of the time in front of Buhner but not holding it against Mantle for walking in front of Elston Howard.

Instead of a logical argument, it looks like you're searching for a reason to say no to Martinez. Which is dumb, there are much better arguments against him available.
We've been discussing Martinez not Mantle.   If you want to discuss Mantle, let's do it.

But, as I said a few times, comparing Martinez to Mantle is a fool's game.    There is no comparison. 
2/14/2014 10:15 AM
Why wouldn't the same logic apply to Mantle? He walked a great deal as a 3-4-5 hitter and passed the buck to Elston Howard. Bad IMO.
2/14/2014 10:22 AM

Are we now discussing Mantle's HOF credentials?   We can if you really want to go that route.   I'll take the pro-HOF side and you can take the "He doesn't deserve it" angle.

2/14/2014 10:25 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/14/2014 10:22:00 AM (view original):

Are we now discussing Mantle's HOF credentials?   We can if you really want to go that route.   I'll take the pro-HOF side and you can take the "He doesn't deserve it" angle.

Oh ok. I already have 50 pages of dumb arguments against any middle of the order hitter who walked at a good rate.
2/14/2014 10:44 AM
Morons.
2/14/2014 5:07 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/13/2014 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Seriously, the funniest part is you don't realize how big of a ***** you come off as.   

How about you define what every word that quanties non-specifically means?  Here's a few;

Several
Many
A lot
Bunch
 

First sentence of this made me literally fall on the floor laughing...

Oh, irony.

2/14/2014 6:39 PM
That's where you're wrong, dumbass.

I don't particularly care if someone thinks I'm a *****.   I say ***** things intentionally.    I'm fully aware of how I come across. 
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