All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Knight > Mega-Ultra-Super-Duper-Uber Challenge
1/23/2014 12:56 AM
To add on to the above - when I say the numbers don't really align, remember that being off by 1 isn't any good. In order for wopr to have real value for my original purposes it had to try to be as accurate as possible (maybe it is, but that's just not accurate enough) - if all the 1s play all the 1s, but some of the 1s are really 5s (or, as really happened last season - if one of the 5 seeds turned out to be the best team in the Heartland) its not really fair after all...so this unbalanced scheduling takes the best 6, which wopr got right pretty well, and might be easier for actual humans to decide upon if not asked to rank the teams just pick the best 6, thereby increasing the liklihood (in theory - I didn't actually check the conference that submitted their own seedings - I think I will shortly and get back to you) and jumbles them up a bit so that the overall toughness is still higher for the higher seeds...wait dammit

ok, so I'm not really sure wopr is good enough to even seed with this unbalanced schedule. Someone suggested somewhere upthread just picking the best 6 from each conference and scheduling it randomly, maybe that's the way to go? I'm open to suggestions now guys, and I hope you get that I was just trying to create my vision, but I get that reality sometimes messes with dreams so we adapt. Sorry if this is incoherent, I'm rather highly medicated.
1/31/2014 12:08 AM
Just figured that I would point out that Clarion hasn't scheduled any non conference games, which of course includes it's MUSDUC games. 
2/12/2014 12:55 PM
So the MUSDUC I imagined when I created this thing isn't really something that is possible I don't believe - that being a strength on strength head to head of the top conferences for supremacy. The seeding methods and the imbalance in number of participants from the member conferences make this not really possible. If every conference were full of humans AND we found some much more accurate seeding method, my original MUSDUC would be possible and sublime. 

That isn't to say that this isn't and won't continue to be a great event. There have been some amazing games, and the competition has been fierce. We've completed 5 challenges now, so it seems like a good time to examine our methods and goals. 

I've recently opened negotiations with the Central conference on scheduling changes that will make the tournament enticing to them once again. There will be changes to the scheduling/seeding method, and pending the outcome of some of these changes further changes might need to be made til this dialed in and everyone gets the best experience. 

For MUSDUC VII (which we will schedule upon the close of this season's challenge games for season 70) we will still seed teams as before. I will provide RWOPR rankings to all conferences who will then either confirm those or submit alterations. From there, instead of all like seeds playing one another, we will use the staggered schedule suggested by rogelio that I reposted below. There may be other changes in the future depending in part on how is goes when this is implemented.

A A B C D E F Rank
1   1 1 2 3 4 11
2   2 2 1 5 3 13
3   3 3 6 1 2 15
4   4 4 5 6 1 20
5   5 5 4 2 6 22
6   6 6 3 4 5 24
B              
1 1   1 4 2 3 11
2 2   2 3 1 5 13
3 3   3 2 6 1 15
4 4   4 1 5 6 20
5 5   5 6 4 2 22
6 6   6 5 3 4 24
C              
1 1 1   3 4 2 11
2 2 2   5 3 1 13
3 3 3   1 2 6 15
4 4 4   6 1 5 20
5 5 5   2 6 4 22
6 6 6   4 5 3 24
D              
1 2 4 3   1 1 11
2 1 3 5   2 2 13
3 6 2 1   3 3 15
4 5 1 6   4 4 20
5 4 6 2   5 5 22
6 3 5 4   6 6 24
E              
1 3 2 4 1   1 11
2 5 1 3 2   2 13
3 1 6 2 3   3 15
4 6 5 1 4   4 20
5 2 4 6 5   5 22
6 4 3 5 6   6 24
F              
1 4 3 2 1 1   11
2 3 5 1 2 2   13
3 2 1 6 3 3   15
4 1 6 5 4 4   20
5 6 2 4 5 5   22
6 5 4 3 6 6   24
2/12/2014 1:47 PM (edited)
Now, I would like some feedback on this and other ideas that I will put forth below. I'll be creating a couple of polls as well. 

The original MUSDUC concept was based largely on conference affiliation. I still like that, but there are a number of conferences that don't have the requisite 6 humans where I actually see people posting on their CC about trying to participate. This could be a good thing I suppose, as maybe those conferences will actively seek out more humans to swell their ranks and get eligible. Of course there's always the chance those new humans could come from current MUSDUC member conferences and weaken their ability to participate...

Among the ideas I have floated is a random "seeding" method where the seeds are basically like HD player height, window dressing. In this method, all the eligible conference's members are thrown in the hat and "seeded" randomly as they are withdrawn. When a conferences gets 6 representatives, they're full and no more of their teams get seeds. Then I can take the randomly determined "seeds" and schedule as I normally do. This is valuable to me because everything is manually entered. It also is one way to combat a problem I think I've seen with the seeding system in that the seeds are not very accurate (look back over my last bunch of posts). It still favors the more full conferences since they have more teams in the hat, but maybe it evens out. I suppose a full conference with 12 names in the hat has the same chance that their 6 worst teams will represent as for their best 6...

As it stands, we have been close to failing to field 6 eligible conferences for the challenge a couple of times. It has always come together, and perhaps the status quo is aok. In the event that a time comes when there are not 6 conferences with 6 human members who want to play, what do we do? We can either do the hybrid conference thing as needed, or take the best sim from the newly ineligible conference, or something else?

My next idea is even more radical. To address those coaches on the outside looking in, why not just open the MUSDUC up to any interest coach in all of Knight D2. I'd still "seed" randomly as before, and once again no more than 6 from any particular conference. This loses the conference rivalry flair by and large (although there's no reason we couldn't still score the conferences, but its likely they would have different numbers of representatives, so the score wouldn't really be representative of anything), but is more inclusive and may be just as much fun. This isn't really my preference, btw, just an idea I thought deserved a mention.

As a kind of hybrid to this last idea and the current situation - there are a couple of traditional MUSDUC members facing new coaches and coaches who failed to schedule, etc issues that may only be able to muster 4 eligible coaches for next season. Any interest in a sort of hybrid team comprised of 3 coaches from each conference if that is necessary to keep 6 conferences playing? What about just in general? Maybe if these 2 long standing members joined forces and 2 other conferences dis as well that would go a long way to getting those currently (or possibly in the near future) disenfranchised coaches into the challenge...

Ultimately what I want is a great challenge and 40 or 50 engaged and competitive coaches more than anything else.
2/12/2014 1:19 PM
Regarding your personal participation in the MUSDUC:









Votes: 16
(Last vote received: 3/28/2014 12:04 AM)
2/12/2014 1:50 PM (edited)
The MUSDUC is a 6 CONFERENCE challenge currently. There are traditionally 2 full or nearly full conferences (the CAA and the Heartland) 2 conferences with a fairly stable 6 or 7 man roster of coaches (the Lone Star and the GLIAC) and then a sort of ebb and tide of the NAAA, the Southern and the PSAC coming and going as they gain and lose member coaches, and 2 or 3 conferences (the GLV and the Rocky Mountain most recently) that have 5 coaches and I believe would be interested, but are lacking that 1 final member. For MUSDUC VII the Central will be returning with at least 8 participating member coaches. Regarding your preferences about conference affiliation and the MUSDUC. 







Votes: 18
(Last vote received: 3/28/2014 12:06 AM)
2/12/2014 2:51 PM
You could have thee traditional "strong" conferences, and then a wild card batch, made up of teams that want in but aren't in a strong enough conference. I suppose that might be more or less the "hybrid" conference, but ...
2/12/2014 3:32 PM
I am very interested in Getting the Rocky Mountain conference in on this and we currently have 5 teams and will start next season to attempt to gather more members for the conference through the forums similar to what other conference attempt to do each season. I feel that we all could compete in the MUSDUC and we and you would all benefit from allowing us to join the MUSDC. 

I am a new member to the Rocky Mountain conference coaching at Chadron State. (Rebuilding mode with moderate returning talent)

Let our conference or myself know if we would be considered for the MUSDUC. 
2/12/2014 8:54 PM
voted. im still in for the naaa
2/13/2014 10:45 AM
so that 2nd poll has 2 answers that are basically the same...I thought I caught all those duplications in editing, obviously not. Answer whichever, I'll figure it out in post.
2/13/2014 10:46 AM
Posted by a_in_the_b on 2/12/2014 2:51:00 PM (view original):
You could have thee traditional "strong" conferences, and then a wild card batch, made up of teams that want in but aren't in a strong enough conference. I suppose that might be more or less the "hybrid" conference, but ...
I like that idea ab.
2/13/2014 3:07 PM
Posted by a_in_the_b on 2/12/2014 2:51:00 PM (view original):
You could have thee traditional "strong" conferences, and then a wild card batch, made up of teams that want in but aren't in a strong enough conference. I suppose that might be more or less the "hybrid" conference, but ...
I like this. We only ever have 5 teams (all of which would like to enter) and for some reason can never seem to get a sixth team. I should also mention our conference is North Central Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. Glad that you are at least considering us little guys
2/13/2014 4:57 PM
A lot of people seem to really dislike the random method, even though both other methods rely on the seedings being more or less accurate to generate their SOS, and I don't think how we are seeding now does a very good job at that...
2/14/2014 2:48 AM
I'm interested. N. Dakota St., NCIA
2/14/2014 8:25 AM
I would be interested starting season 71, I had already started scheduling games for season 70 before I read about the MUSDUC and would not have enough room left to schedule these games for that season, but I would be interested to be in consideration for season 71. I'm also fairly new to this as well, Season 69 would be my second overall season and my first with this team (UMASS, LOWELL) but I'm hoping by the time we start getting ready for season 71 I will have more experience and a better team to compete in the MUSDUC. My conference is North American Athletic Association.
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