5/30/2013 11:34 AM
Thanks for the input guys. From where I'm standing the code is incredibly detailed and I'm learning the screws to turn to make this beast go. It's going to take some time, but bear with me for a little as I learn what you think is broken and the loopholes that you are using to get around these things. 

Let's start there, how about a list I can go through and fix? Let's talk about specifics  that appear to be broken and how you think it might be fixed. I understand this is subjective, but it will give me a better feel for what you are learning and how I can explain it/fix it for you.

Currently I'm working on getting some of the 2.0 additions into the game (penalties, injuries, auto selecting starters if not chosen). After that, I'm going to go through and turn the screws a bit, and attempting to get the right feel.

As for the 3.0 engine, turning back the clock to engine 1.0 is not realistic, but what we can do is turn the screws to make the system right. You are right, there are a bunch of individual knobs that will affect other various parts of the game, but besides tweaking the system, I'm working on a couple more internal tools that will help me create a more robust test environment to make sure that we don't screw up too much.  
5/30/2013 1:31 PM
Why are you adding complexity to the system when the base mechanics still need fixing?  Doesn't this just make muddy the waters further when testing and seeking feedback from beta?

outside running>inside running
time taken per play needs adjusting
passing coverage is an absolute mess
     players covering entire field, left to right, short to deep
     completions into triple coverage are absurdly high (see previous point, is it really triple coverage?)
     completions into double coverage are absurdly high (see previous point, is it really double coverage?)

I gave several examples in this thread:
http://whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?TopicID=467538&ThreadID=10187846#l_10187846

     

5/30/2013 2:28 PM
Oriole fan,  When norbert was making ajustments he said that all attributes were at 50 so that he would know if more/less tweaking needed to take place.  What we are seeing in game results is basicly this:  The differential between good and bad is roughly 100 points in a full football game.   Evenly matched teams produce evenly matched results.  If you stuck a 50 point governer on blowouts, most of the users would be happy.  I personally dont care.

Here are some problems that need tweaking bad.
  • significantly lower completion % for covered WR's
  • raise YAC
  • Raise Interceptions
  • raise tackle for loss(stuffs)
  • get rid of the language showing (all defenders) "in the area" of PBP discussion because if  I read one more thread about how some moron confuses this with coverages; I am going to go off! IE... How can Jorge Johnson cover 2 different Wr's or How can that WR catch the ball in triple coverage? 
Things that are working well:
  • There are ZERO upsets. I kind of like this since we pay to play. And I play to win. If a better team beats me it makes me want to work harder.  
  • Talent if used properly definately matters
  • Gameplanning properly is very important.
  • Don't listen to ANYONE who says the interface is too confusing or time consuming. "F" them. The interface and controls are awesome and reward thinking outside the box and creativity and most importantly...COMMITMENT.
1.0 was boring, 2.0  nothing equates because every play is a lottery with odds, and 3.0  is a jet engine that is in a severe need of a major tuneup to make it purr.


5/30/2013 3:03 PM
I also think that a team should not be able to run the same formation and either always pass or run and get the same results. In RL a team would make adjustments and slow down their opponent. As it stands now there is nothing detrimental to running shotgun always pass or run. To me this is just not realistic that a team can continue to see the same results in each cycle of downs
5/30/2013 10:17 PM
Posted by tigerpark135 on 5/30/2013 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Oriole fan,  When norbert was making ajustments he said that all attributes were at 50 so that he would know if more/less tweaking needed to take place.  What we are seeing in game results is basicly this:  The differential between good and bad is roughly 100 points in a full football game.   Evenly matched teams produce evenly matched results.  If you stuck a 50 point governer on blowouts, most of the users would be happy.  I personally dont care.

Here are some problems that need tweaking bad.
  • significantly lower completion % for covered WR's
  • raise YAC
  • Raise Interceptions
  • raise tackle for loss(stuffs)
  • get rid of the language showing (all defenders) "in the area" of PBP discussion because if  I read one more thread about how some moron confuses this with coverages; I am going to go off! IE... How can Jorge Johnson cover 2 different Wr's or How can that WR catch the ball in triple coverage? 
Things that are working well:
  • There are ZERO upsets. I kind of like this since we pay to play. And I play to win. If a better team beats me it makes me want to work harder.  
  • Talent if used properly definately matters
  • Gameplanning properly is very important.
  • Don't listen to ANYONE who says the interface is too confusing or time consuming. "F" them. The interface and controls are awesome and reward thinking outside the box and creativity and most importantly...COMMITMENT.
1.0 was boring, 2.0  nothing equates because every play is a lottery with odds, and 3.0  is a jet engine that is in a severe need of a major tuneup to make it purr.


No upsets? What about upsets where being outgameplanned happens? Those need to exist.
5/30/2013 10:22 PM
By no upsets, he means no ridiculous upsets. Relatively evenly matched teams can out gameplan a slightly better team, but gameplanning won't overcome a significant difference. These do exist irl, but are < 1% of these games. He is largely saying he'd rather see no upsets like this than to attempt to have < 1% because it will always work out to be more then 1% and effect his paid game in unrealistic ways. 
This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
5/31/2013 7:14 AM
Posted by noah23 on 5/30/2013 10:22:00 PM (view original):
By no upsets, he means no ridiculous upsets. Relatively evenly matched teams can out gameplan a slightly better team, but gameplanning won't overcome a significant difference. These do exist irl, but are < 1% of these games. He is largely saying he'd rather see no upsets like this than to attempt to have < 1% because it will always work out to be more then 1% and effect his paid game in unrealistic ways. 
+1. Caesari, by all means yes. I agree that gameplanning upsets should exist and do exist.  
5/31/2013 3:11 PM
Some thoughts: Game engine running smoothly is the biggest hurdle. Things to check in the engine, especially if you are adding other things (which I think is too soon - the other main gears aren't meshing smoothly yet)

QB - make sure that for passing that the variable for QB (strength, GI, tech) are appropriate for the stats some of these QB's are throwing up. Also make sure that QB with low speed/elus are getting sacked at at rate higher than those with higher ratings.

RB - I would check to see what effect blocking RB are having in the sim. Seems WB is really difficult right now and I wonder if RB are getting credit for blocking ahead of the run.

WR - Need to check if hands, GI and tech are playing enough of a role with receptions. Especially if there are 3 DB in the area.

DL - need to see what effect of DL is having on passing - seems after the "QB getting heavy pressure" message the DL effects bog down. Check the pressure effects on the QB

LB - make sure the blitz settings are putting the LB in proper position to shut down a run or passing play. Right now a blitzing player really decreases their effect on the play. Check position effects for pass plays.

DB - make adjustments to PBP to state whether a DB is in the area or closely covering. Triple coverage right now doesn't really mean coverage as seen by all the completions. Bolster the DB effects, especially on long and deep passes. Increase INT and PD, especially for longer throws. Make sure weaker rated QB pay more of penalty, make sure better DB's have an impact. Consider giving each WR/TE/RB match-ups with single (or double if extra #'s) LB/DB on each play in PBP.
5/31/2013 11:15 PM
Erase all codes to do with passing and rewrite them.
5/31/2013 11:56 PM
Posted by bagchucker on 5/31/2013 12:41:00 AM (view original):
i think you should not listen to these guys at all

they have a vested interest and they have opinions

you have stats from real life

when your game matches real life it is correct

ignore the jibberty jabber
Playability should be the ultimate goal.    Matching real life does not equate to a good game.   If your users find it unplayable (i.e 2.0) they will not play or pay money.   Do not ignore the users of the game.    WIS has a vested interest in keeping them happy with the product
6/1/2013 3:12 AM (edited)
sure, sure, a good game is what we want

but look at it

it sims a half game twice a day

get the half right and no complainer has a leg to stand on

why are we getting beta details about who is in coverage against who when all they have to do is make the play by play match the half



look, what is the fascination with formation

formation is superman in a suit

in real football you can run any play from any formation

you can audible and move from wishbone to shotgun just like that

you can fake the run and throw the pass

you can fake the throw and run the ball

you can drop lineman back into coverage

formation don't mean crap, formation is a tool to confuse your opponent

unless you're old school
6/1/2013 10:11 AM
You can audible from wishbone to shotgun "just like that"? Sure...if you want to be running a truly poor shotgun formation play. The personnel needed for wishbone is significantly different then for shotgun. Maybe if you said..pro set, or I-form that could be true, NDB and Wishbone are really not compatible with the other sets for audible purposes 
6/2/2013 1:14 AM
a formation is not an offense

an offense is a philosophy and a plan of action

a formation is just a guise
6/2/2013 8:40 AM
Posted by slid64er on 5/28/2013 11:38:00 AM (view original):
IMO, go back to 1.0.  Adjust the distribution on running plays so they're not so deterministic (i.e. increase the variability).  When that's done, start adding bells and whistles to your heart's content as long as they're vetted on the beta and added one at a time.

Even though norbert insists this compartmentalized, step by step system is better, the results are proving otherwise.  It's also much more difficult to make adjustments to individual variables since you can't independently test each one on it's own the way the engine is set up.  This is also being proved out by the results since the adjustments take so long and seem to have unintended side effects which shows a lot of unknown linkages.
+1
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