Posted by katzphang88 on 3/21/2013 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Make the "rush vs pass" defenses only apply to the first 2 or 3 steps. If defense set to rush and offense passes - defense alters to pass after step 2 (DL begins pash rush, LB drop to cover, DB falls to cover), but offense gets advantage for first two steps (behind line and short passes). Same with rush vs pass, offense gets advantage to step two (ball carrier past LOS or outside) then defense adapts to rush (drops pass coverage and moves to ball carrier).

If this isn't too hard for Norbert to do it makes sense.

Posted by coach_deen on 3/21/2013 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by norbert on 3/21/2013 4:48:00 PM (view original):
Keep in mind a couple things.  The stats from the season were before I updated the rushing.  Only look at rushing numbers from this point on.  Passing is not ready to be tested for results just yet as it is part way through some rebuilding as rushing was before I asked for you to test it.  At some point, passing will be ready to hit hard.  The rushing numbers will be tweaked based on what you guys are finding - which is why I asked for the testing.

If you want to fully examine the shotgun running, I would ask to also look at running out of other formations against pass defenses.  From what I can tell, you'll find similar high results.  I think the rushing against pass defense is getting a little too much credit so I am working on adjusting that, but I think there still has to be an advantage when rushing against a pass defense even if its the QB.  It just shouldn't be as high as it is now.

The other thing to look at is the effects of the Cover settings when rushing out of the shotgun.  Essentially the Cover settings tells you where your Safeties are covering and Short Cover should see a little better results against rushing than Long Cover.

We can never get fully realistic play calling because in real life everything is so dynamic and players react based on what they are seeing.  A defense that sees the QB rush on several shotgun plays is going to start watching for the rush.  A QB that sees the defense might attack the line might change the play to pass to take advantage of the reduced cover.  We would need some sort of conditional adjustments in our game to allow coaches to set these up.  I think most people don't want to see the engine automatically make these adjustments.  Until then, since you can't adjust play calls like this, we need to make sure there isn't anything too cheesy when it comes to match ups.  I would put rushing all the time out of the shotgun for every play in the category of cheese.

I just don't agree that rushing all of the time out of the shotgun formation would be "cheese". If you go to YouTube and search "Johnny Manziel Highlights" or "Tim Tebow College Highlights" you will see that a HUGE % of their called runs are out of he shotgun. Now I do agree that running the QB out of the shotgun 40-50 times per game is cheese, but not if you mix it up between the QB and 1 or 2 WR. That is more like a team running the option out of shotgun formation, which you also see quite a bit of in these videos. The difference in GD and RL is we can't put a RB in the backfield when running out of the gun. If we could, and gave the ball to the RB 25 times per game I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
All of that said, I 100% understand others outlook on this when I picture a QB lining up in the gun and keeping the ball...over & over. When I set my team up it's with the QB & either 1 or 2 WR splitting carries. What I'm trying to do is get as close to possible at running an option type offense out of the gun (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwMInV2RyYg).

I did say it was cheese if you ran out of shotgun for every play, so I think we are on the same page as far as there being legitimate rushing out of shotgun.  At some point, you do have to count on the opponent game planning against a team's tendencies, but I think the penalty for "getting it wrong" is too high right now when it comes to calling a pass defense versus a run.  Some responsibility is required on the coach to realize he's playing against a Manziel and call the right playbook for that.

Posted by norbert on 3/21/2013 5:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by coach_deen on 3/21/2013 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by norbert on 3/21/2013 4:48:00 PM (view original):
Keep in mind a couple things.  The stats from the season were before I updated the rushing.  Only look at rushing numbers from this point on.  Passing is not ready to be tested for results just yet as it is part way through some rebuilding as rushing was before I asked for you to test it.  At some point, passing will be ready to hit hard.  The rushing numbers will be tweaked based on what you guys are finding - which is why I asked for the testing.

If you want to fully examine the shotgun running, I would ask to also look at running out of other formations against pass defenses.  From what I can tell, you'll find similar high results.  I think the rushing against pass defense is getting a little too much credit so I am working on adjusting that, but I think there still has to be an advantage when rushing against a pass defense even if its the QB.  It just shouldn't be as high as it is now.

The other thing to look at is the effects of the Cover settings when rushing out of the shotgun.  Essentially the Cover settings tells you where your Safeties are covering and Short Cover should see a little better results against rushing than Long Cover.

We can never get fully realistic play calling because in real life everything is so dynamic and players react based on what they are seeing.  A defense that sees the QB rush on several shotgun plays is going to start watching for the rush.  A QB that sees the defense might attack the line might change the play to pass to take advantage of the reduced cover.  We would need some sort of conditional adjustments in our game to allow coaches to set these up.  I think most people don't want to see the engine automatically make these adjustments.  Until then, since you can't adjust play calls like this, we need to make sure there isn't anything too cheesy when it comes to match ups.  I would put rushing all the time out of the shotgun for every play in the category of cheese.

I just don't agree that rushing all of the time out of the shotgun formation would be "cheese". If you go to YouTube and search "Johnny Manziel Highlights" or "Tim Tebow College Highlights" you will see that a HUGE % of their called runs are out of he shotgun. Now I do agree that running the QB out of the shotgun 40-50 times per game is cheese, but not if you mix it up between the QB and 1 or 2 WR. That is more like a team running the option out of shotgun formation, which you also see quite a bit of in these videos. The difference in GD and RL is we can't put a RB in the backfield when running out of the gun. If we could, and gave the ball to the RB 25 times per game I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
All of that said, I 100% understand others outlook on this when I picture a QB lining up in the gun and keeping the ball...over & over. When I set my team up it's with the QB & either 1 or 2 WR splitting carries. What I'm trying to do is get as close to possible at running an option type offense out of the gun (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwMInV2RyYg).

I did say it was cheese if you ran out of shotgun for every play, so I think we are on the same page as far as there being legitimate rushing out of shotgun.  At some point, you do have to count on the opponent game planning against a team's tendencies, but I think the penalty for "getting it wrong" is too high right now when it comes to calling a pass defense versus a run.  Some responsibility is required on the coach to realize he's playing against a Manziel and call the right playbook for that.

The penalty is too great if you call pass and the offense runs.  The penalty is too small if you call run and the offense passes.

Posted by norbert on 3/21/2013 5:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by coach_deen on 3/21/2013 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by norbert on 3/21/2013 4:48:00 PM (view original):
Keep in mind a couple things.  The stats from the season were before I updated the rushing.  Only look at rushing numbers from this point on.  Passing is not ready to be tested for results just yet as it is part way through some rebuilding as rushing was before I asked for you to test it.  At some point, passing will be ready to hit hard.  The rushing numbers will be tweaked based on what you guys are finding - which is why I asked for the testing.

If you want to fully examine the shotgun running, I would ask to also look at running out of other formations against pass defenses.  From what I can tell, you'll find similar high results.  I think the rushing against pass defense is getting a little too much credit so I am working on adjusting that, but I think there still has to be an advantage when rushing against a pass defense even if its the QB.  It just shouldn't be as high as it is now.

The other thing to look at is the effects of the Cover settings when rushing out of the shotgun.  Essentially the Cover settings tells you where your Safeties are covering and Short Cover should see a little better results against rushing than Long Cover.

We can never get fully realistic play calling because in real life everything is so dynamic and players react based on what they are seeing.  A defense that sees the QB rush on several shotgun plays is going to start watching for the rush.  A QB that sees the defense might attack the line might change the play to pass to take advantage of the reduced cover.  We would need some sort of conditional adjustments in our game to allow coaches to set these up.  I think most people don't want to see the engine automatically make these adjustments.  Until then, since you can't adjust play calls like this, we need to make sure there isn't anything too cheesy when it comes to match ups.  I would put rushing all the time out of the shotgun for every play in the category of cheese.

I just don't agree that rushing all of the time out of the shotgun formation would be "cheese". If you go to YouTube and search "Johnny Manziel Highlights" or "Tim Tebow College Highlights" you will see that a HUGE % of their called runs are out of he shotgun. Now I do agree that running the QB out of the shotgun 40-50 times per game is cheese, but not if you mix it up between the QB and 1 or 2 WR. That is more like a team running the option out of shotgun formation, which you also see quite a bit of in these videos. The difference in GD and RL is we can't put a RB in the backfield when running out of the gun. If we could, and gave the ball to the RB 25 times per game I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
All of that said, I 100% understand others outlook on this when I picture a QB lining up in the gun and keeping the ball...over & over. When I set my team up it's with the QB & either 1 or 2 WR splitting carries. What I'm trying to do is get as close to possible at running an option type offense out of the gun (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwMInV2RyYg).

I did say it was cheese if you ran out of shotgun for every play, so I think we are on the same page as far as there being legitimate rushing out of shotgun.  At some point, you do have to count on the opponent game planning against a team's tendencies, but I think the penalty for "getting it wrong" is too high right now when it comes to calling a pass defense versus a run.  Some responsibility is required on the coach to realize he's playing against a Manziel and call the right playbook for that.

I think you're right. If you lessen the penalty for "getting it wrong" (calling pass when the offense runs) just a little and make the penalty when the defense calls run and the offense passes just a little greater I believe you'll be right on target. I realize you're working on the latter as we speak and am guessing it will be on target. For the millionth time Norbert, you're doing one amazing job!

Posted by norbert on 3/21/2013 4:48:00 PM (view original):
Keep in mind a couple things.  The stats from the season were before I updated the rushing.  Only look at rushing numbers from this point on.  Passing is not ready to be tested for results just yet as it is part way through some rebuilding as rushing was before I asked for you to test it.  At some point, passing will be ready to hit hard.  The rushing numbers will be tweaked based on what you guys are finding - which is why I asked for the testing.

If you want to fully examine the shotgun running, I would ask to also look at running out of other formations against pass defenses.  From what I can tell, you'll find similar high results.  I think the rushing against pass defense is getting a little too much credit so I am working on adjusting that, but I think there still has to be an advantage when rushing against a pass defense even if its the QB.  It just shouldn't be as high as it is now.

The other thing to look at is the effects of the Cover settings when rushing out of the shotgun.  Essentially the Cover settings tells you where your Safeties are covering and Short Cover should see a little better results against rushing than Long Cover.

We can never get fully realistic play calling because in real life everything is so dynamic and players react based on what they are seeing.  A defense that sees the QB rush on several shotgun plays is going to start watching for the rush.  A QB that sees the defense might attack the line might change the play to pass to take advantage of the reduced cover.  We would need some sort of conditional adjustments in our game to allow coaches to set these up.  I think most people don't want to see the engine automatically make these adjustments.  Until then, since you can't adjust play calls like this, we need to make sure there isn't anything too cheesy when it comes to match ups.  I would put rushing all the time out of the shotgun for every play in the category of cheese.

A bit off topic for the shotgun run discussion, but maybe a tendency mechanic can be integrated into the game. Depending on the consecutive number of plays a run or pass is called the tendency ticks up one. There can be a box next to Blitz % for each Range and Set. The coach can enter the maximum value the Rush/Pass ratio can adjust during the game.

For example: the team you are playing uses Shotgun exclusively. Sometimes all pass, sometimes all run, sometimes mix. In this particular game they are going all run. After 5 straight run plays the tendency meter ticks up one. After another 5 straight run plays its up to two. If you have your tendency value set to a max value of 5 for first and long.. the next first and ten your Run/Pass setting is adjusted by 2. So if you had 50/50.. .it would be 52/48.

Even less talented teams can see obvious tendencies. But he talent differential will still allow the superior team to do what they want.

Not sure how feasible or if it makes sense. Just throwing it out there for Norbert and the veteran coaches to kick around.