3/18/2013 3:06 PM
Ok let me preface this by saying that I'm NOT in the camp of saying that we need to change SIM recruiting...I realize that humans have so many advantages it's ridiculous.  I'm just trying to understand something for my own benefit moving forward.

With my A+ St Mary's team, I decided to battle a C- D2 SIM for a player.  I was 280 miles away, and the SIM was 960 miles away. We both had 3 open scholarships and I had about 5k in bonus money (1500 of which I spent on FSS.) Simmy had roughly $3,500 in bonus cash.  Don't know about carryover (can SIM's even get carryover?) but at D2 the carryover is generally so negligable that it shouldn't be a factor.  I would think this is especially true where SIM goes really hard after 1 or 2 recruits when they have a number of spots to fill (as in the season before). 

In total Simmy had in the ballpark of $18,500.  The player in question was the only player they were recruiting, so I had to suspect they poured every penny they had into this player.

The first cycle I dumped enough SVs into the player to get him considering me.  Second cycle I threw ina  few HV's, and then started doing 1 HV at a time until I took the lead.  I didn't take the lead until I had put in approx $11,500 in effort to this player.  Now for the SIM to put in exactly the same amount of effort as me at a range of 960 miles would have cost over $20,000....and that doesn't even take into consideration the difference in team prestige, which I thought would have given me a significant advantage...or the conference prestige B- to C+ which should have given another small advantage.

It's not that hard to calculate bonus cash...so I know I didn't miss anything there...but what AM I missing?  I thought for sure I'd be able to take the lead on this guys with 7 or 8k worth of effort given all the other considerations.

Fortunately it didn't end up hurting me and I got both guys I wanted, but it was still frustrating and has me questioning my understanding of how a few things work.

Thoughts?
3/18/2013 3:17 PM
Posted by bow2dacowz on 3/18/2013 3:06:00 PM (view original):
Ok let me preface this by saying that I'm NOT in the camp of saying that we need to change SIM recruiting...I realize that humans have so many advantages it's ridiculous.  I'm just trying to understand something for my own benefit moving forward.

With my A+ St Mary's team, I decided to battle a C- D2 SIM for a player.  I was 280 miles away, and the SIM was 960 miles away. We both had 3 open scholarships and I had about 5k in bonus money (1500 of which I spent on FSS.) Simmy had roughly $3,500 in bonus cash.  Don't know about carryover (can SIM's even get carryover?) but at D2 the carryover is generally so negligable that it shouldn't be a factor.  I would think this is especially true where SIM goes really hard after 1 or 2 recruits when they have a number of spots to fill (as in the season before). 

In total Simmy had in the ballpark of $18,500.  The player in question was the only player they were recruiting, so I had to suspect they poured every penny they had into this player.

The first cycle I dumped enough SVs into the player to get him considering me.  Second cycle I threw ina  few HV's, and then started doing 1 HV at a time until I took the lead.  I didn't take the lead until I had put in approx $11,500 in effort to this player.  Now for the SIM to put in exactly the same amount of effort as me at a range of 960 miles would have cost over $20,000....and that doesn't even take into consideration the difference in team prestige, which I thought would have given me a significant advantage...or the conference prestige B- to C+ which should have given another small advantage.

It's not that hard to calculate bonus cash...so I know I didn't miss anything there...but what AM I missing?  I thought for sure I'd be able to take the lead on this guys with 7 or 8k worth of effort given all the other considerations.

Fortunately it didn't end up hurting me and I got both guys I wanted, but it was still frustrating and has me questioning my understanding of how a few things work.

Thoughts?
Q: Do AI-controlled teams recruit like humans?
A: AI schools identify their primary and backup targets like humans, but the do all of their recruiting just before the official start to recruiting (which is also why you may see recruits already considering schools when recruiting begins). Also, AI-controlled schools recruiting efforts are the equivalent to being roughly 200 miles from the recruit regardless of actual distance.

From the FAQ.
3/18/2013 3:35 PM
thanks, guess that would explain it
3/18/2013 3:51 PM
Here's an anecdote in response to the Q&A backboy posted above.

In Wooden, after the first cycle a D3 JUCO wasn't considering anyone.  I put effort into him in the second cycle and got considered, but surprisingly a D2 SIM showed up on the kid as well.  I was wondering how in the world that happened b/c I also assumed all the SIMS did their first round of effort before recruiting began, and then later "recruited" another kid perhaps after signings, but never so early as the second cycle on the first day of recruiting.  Anybody ever seen this?  Is it possible that the SIM was outbid in the very first cycle and no longer was being considered for 1 or more of his initial targets and the engine adapted by having it go after additional targets in the second cycle?  That's the only explanation I have, as I don't recall seeing this before.
3/18/2013 6:46 PM
Posted by jdno on 3/18/2013 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Here's an anecdote in response to the Q&A backboy posted above.

In Wooden, after the first cycle a D3 JUCO wasn't considering anyone.  I put effort into him in the second cycle and got considered, but surprisingly a D2 SIM showed up on the kid as well.  I was wondering how in the world that happened b/c I also assumed all the SIMS did their first round of effort before recruiting began, and then later "recruited" another kid perhaps after signings, but never so early as the second cycle on the first day of recruiting.  Anybody ever seen this?  Is it possible that the SIM was outbid in the very first cycle and no longer was being considered for 1 or more of his initial targets and the engine adapted by having it go after additional targets in the second cycle?  That's the only explanation I have, as I don't recall seeing this before.
Date User
7/26/2011 3:12 AM dacj501
RECRUITING - TIME SENSITIVE
**************************
Between 8 pm and 11 pm I searched for some juco centers, specifically selecting only undecided recruits for my search. I called 2 of them, one being Paul Warfield from Middletown, NY. After the 11pm cycle ran, I got the message that he was recruitable, but he also now showed (as of 11 pm) as considering a SIMAI school. He was not considering at 8pm. Is this something new for SIMAI or is it some kind of error?
7/26/2011 9:17 AM Customer Support
Darryl,

All efforts from Puerto Rico, Rio Piedras were performed during the previous season's recruiting session. We don't track when a team appears on the considering list.
7/26/2011 9:45 AM dacj501
Doesn't that last season info kick in immediately or does this mean that there is some kind of delay? I am 100% sure that no one was showing considering on him at 8 pm. I have never seen a sim show up at that time before, in fact, the sims all show up at 6 pm in my experience. 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say when you tell me you don't track when a team appears on the considering list. Could you please explain?
7/26/2011 12:06 PM Customer Support
Normally, the team would appear on the considering list before recruiting began. It's possible there was some delay in this case.

We don't save any record of date/time that a team actually appears on the considering list. That means we can't tell exactly when a certain team did show up on the list.
7/26/2011 12:11 PM dacj501
what would cause that delay? like I said, I've never seen that before, and this is another situation where someone could spend money expecting things will work a certain way only to be surprised by something that isn't typical...
7/26/2011 4:01 PM Customer Support
An error during processing could cause a delay, but there's no indication of that anywhere in our data.
7/26/2011 4:06 PM dacj501
it seems an error must have occurred then, as I can assure that he was not considering until 11 pm. I've moved on to other players, so there is no action I am seeking, but you should be aware of an error if that is the case. You can see that my effort came between 8 and 11. I would not have bothered calling someone already considering, and I specifically sorted my search results to only include players who were listed as undecided.
7/26/2011 4:08 PM Customer Support
We'll continue to investigate and add more tracking information to allow us to better answer these types of questions.
3/18/2013 7:05 PM
coughcoughbullshatcoughcough
3/18/2013 8:32 PM
standard cust service response to everything...."the engine is working as intended"

but to echo Bow's sentiments......BSBSBSBSBSBSBSBS

3/18/2013 9:39 PM
thx dac, guess it's a quirk of sorts.  My guy was a JUCO Soph, so I'm wondering if the SIM recruited him last season but he went JUCO on the SIM and for whatever reason it took a cycle for the kid to consider him again.  I didn't notice any carryover WOTS from last season on the kid to confirm that the SIM was on him then, so this is just speculation on my part.  Anyhow, just thought it was odd to happen so early in recruiting.
3/19/2013 9:19 AM
I am pretty sure that for JUCO's, they are all undecided on the 8pm cycle and then previous effort shows up on the 11pm cycle.

I have had that happen on guys I recruited the previous year too. At 11pm on day 1, they are considering me based on recruiting effort from last season. they were undecided at the 8pm cycle.

In fact, based on my observing this happen on several occasions, i thought it was how previous season's effort worked on JUCO's.
3/19/2013 2:22 PM
just to take the FAQ response a bit further, sims dont even recruit with money. they have no money and they dont care about distance, so its not just that you thought the sim was far in your assessment, its also that you cant do that kind of analysis with sims whatsoever.
3/19/2013 2:27 PM
to dac's point, sometimes sims dont sign people right at signings, either. i am 90% sure ive seen a sim pop up on an ineligible after the first cycle too, because of this same kind of thing, where they did enough effort to sign but not enough to get considered straight away. i DONT think players start to lower their standards 1-2 cycles into recruiting, otherwise that could reasonably explain it - rather, it just seems there is some weird bug with sims where randomly, things take a cycle or two longer to happen. otherwise, i dont know why guys would not sign with sims in the first cycle of signing, when they have enough effort it. ive tossed a bit of money at a guy or two sims didnt sign, thinking they must have a teeny tiny bit of effort in, but that turned out not to be the case, i dont remember the details, but i remember being surprised the sim had that much effort into the guy, as i assumed they had to be following our rules - to not sign at 8, that sim must have had enoguh effort to get considered but not signed, which is a VERY narrow window and very small amounts of effort, but that wasnt true.

in conclusion, trying to apply human recruiting thinking to sims has basically failed me in any and all cases... so i give up. i just assume sims march to the beat of their own drum, except when they dont, in which case, they usually do nothing, but not always. there are also a number of reported cases where sims come from behind to sign a player, which makes far less sense than anything else ive seen regarding sims.
3/19/2013 3:30 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 3/19/2013 2:22:00 PM (view original):
just to take the FAQ response a bit further, sims dont even recruit with money. they have no money and they dont care about distance, so its not just that you thought the sim was far in your assessment, its also that you cant do that kind of analysis with sims whatsoever.
That makes no sense at all.  If they don't use money to recruit then what is the point of stating in the FAQ that they recruit from a distance of 200 miles?  It's irrelevant if not for the value at which they would be recruiting at from that distance.
3/19/2013 7:46 PM
Posted by bow2dacowz on 3/19/2013 3:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 3/19/2013 2:22:00 PM (view original):
just to take the FAQ response a bit further, sims dont even recruit with money. they have no money and they dont care about distance, so its not just that you thought the sim was far in your assessment, its also that you cant do that kind of analysis with sims whatsoever.
That makes no sense at all.  If they don't use money to recruit then what is the point of stating in the FAQ that they recruit from a distance of 200 miles?  It's irrelevant if not for the value at which they would be recruiting at from that distance.
using anything from the FAQ is extremely dangerous at best...

i dont know what to tell you though, that is strange. admin (old admin i think?) once told us sims have a totally different system, they just use "credit", not money. now maybe their "credit" lines up with how much money one would get, i dont know. i feel like as always, we are given a kernel of truth, but who the hell knows how to apply it? not me. i would definitely be up for more transparency and fewer bugs in HD :)

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