All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > IQ - Is it more important at PG position?
2/27/2013 10:55 PM
With my D2 team I recently grabbed a transfer player.  He knows my defense but not my offense.

He is a PG and probably has the right skill set to be the best PG on my team (once his offensive IQ improves anyway).

This led me to question:  does the PG position value IQ more than other positions?  Obviously in RL if a PG didn't understand the offense, it would have a ripple effect to some degree.

So I wondered - if I put him at SG is there less "penalty"?  Or does it matter where he is playing in terms of his negative IQ and it's impact on the team?

Secondly, does anyone know exactly how IQ works?  I don't recall if they (seble, etc.) have shared it...
I assume it essentially operates as a percentage deduction of a players skills. 

For example: (keep in mind these numbers are just hypothetical/guesses)

Player Smith has A+ IQ his overall defense / offense ratings (such as speed, def, ath, etc) will operate at 100%
Player Joe has D- then he operates at 65% (so his spd, def, ath is reduced by 45%)....

Is this too simplistic of an assumption?  My experience seems to tell me that low IQ doesn't always seem to be that much problem (see example of one coach who ran a team with no IQ practice time and still had some interesting success)

In sum, does anyone know how much of an impact IQ has?  Any sense if it's more important at some positions than others?  I think PG is a special case in the sense that he is the "QB" of the offense often times.  I can see that lower IQs would not be as much of a problem for the Center, etc. because they don't handle the ball as much.

Thanks for any thoughts.

2/28/2013 12:06 AM (edited)
Can't say I've empirically tested it, or thoroughly mined the data, but from experience it seems like a player with a higher offensive iq, all other things being equal, draws fouls from the opposing team more. Gets to the free throw line more, which would be important for a post player. Iq has effects on more, offensively, than just turnovers.

And that experiment as you might call it, is incomplete data without running its inverse and getting a "super IQ" team. That team did well ... But you can't tell if it wouldn't have done better with more minutes directed to iq. It's also possible to have a level of success with substandard speed, ath, per, or any number of ratings - but the fact that you can have a level of success without certain ratings doesn't mean they aren't important - it just means you can get around their importance with other strengths. Possible and optimal are not identical.
2/28/2013 4:04 AM
"In sum, does anyone know how much of an impact IQ has?  Any sense if it's more important at some positions than others?  I think PG is a special case in the sense that he is the "QB" of the offense often times.  I can see that lower IQs would not be as much of a problem for the Center, etc. because they don't handle the ball as much."

1.  I don't think anyone has a numerical value for IQ.   I have seen people estimate 3% per partial letter grade., that seems reasonable.     I don't think it is that steep though.   If it were the D's would really sucks.  RobotDevil (whoever he is) did an IQ study and his D-'s did "fine".

2.  I don't believe IQ is more important in one position as opposed to others.    I know it is in the defense metric, shooting equation and rebounding formula.  I suspect it is in many more.  I can tell you this, one of the best PG's I ever had was a DIII JUCO guy that led an incredibly overachieving team.  His OFF IQ never got above a B+.   I have pretty much found that when I have a team do better than I think they will do it's because I have a superior passing PG.  IQ seems irrelevant.

3.I don't think IQ is more important in one position but I do believe it is "more" important for players in the DEFENSE and SCORING equation.
2/28/2013 11:43 AM
Interesting comments...
It really comes down to the question of:  does the point guard actually have the ball more in his hands?  if so, you would think his skill set & IQ would be more important in the overall equation for offense.

if the program simply averages the 5 players all equally then the a players weaknesses would be hidden or de-emphasized. 

Perhaps different offenses (and defenses) weight more heavily certain players as well?

it sounds like most folks think the math equation looks at all 5 players collectively rather then indivdually.

2/28/2013 2:33 PM
what do you mean, "it soudns like most folks think the math equation looks at all 5 players collectively, rather than individually"??

what math equations are you referring to, there is definitely more than 1 :)

i actually disagree on the offensive note TJ made, iq is less of a factor in scoring than other things. it used to be a bigger factor, but admin changed it to be a smaller one, and it seems now than freshman can score reasonably effectively. really, i mean in shooting ability there, not fouling. i think low iq players can put up decent fg% and 3pt%. turnovers, defensive ability, fouling, those seem to be areas they struggle more.
2/28/2013 4:46 PM
to clarify, I mean that when the program runs it's algorithm and is trying to figure out the result of a play:

does it take all 5 players into consideration when deciding if the team either: scores (perhaps being fouled), turns it over (via bad play, steal, whatever) or shoots but misses (rebound algorithm starts)... and then the result is posted in the play by play taking into account distro, IQ, skills of the players, etc.

Or does the program somehow consider:  player A has the ball --> run program to determine next step which could be --> pass, shoot, make shot, turnover; player b has ball:  pass, shoot, turnover, etc....

I thought you [Gillispie] had said in the past its really just a complex algorithm that determes 3 or 4 different outcomes rather than breaking down each part of an actual possession.  The main outcomes are always either: turnover (steal, bad play), shoot (make or miss, then rebound algorithm), foul.  I know you talked about it when discussing whether assists are just window dressing assigned after the fact rather than something more meaningful associated with passing skill...

If however the program goes step by step via player to player (much more complex IMO) then each individual player would be more important because a very weak player could more likely disrupt the play.... hence I am screwed with a new PG that don't know jack about the flex offense!

I am no mathematician.  I am probably naive how complex these equations could be... perhaps it doesn't matter, but I was just curious what others thought.
2/28/2013 7:49 PM
I am pretty sure it is a player vs player opposed role.

The SIM decides which player is going to take the action, then decides who is covering him, then determines the outcome.

My assumption is based on the fact that fga are a huge determining factor in to.
3/1/2013 10:15 PM
I've always understood that IQ on offense affects LP/Per/BH/Pass and on defense just DEF.  REB and SB are unaffected.
3/2/2013 1:41 PM
Iq affects def. They said so in a dev chat.
3/2/2013 2:34 PM
Posted by rsvphr on 3/1/2013 10:15:00 PM (view original):
I've always understood that IQ on offense affects LP/Per/BH/Pass and on defense just DEF.  REB and SB are unaffected.
I think there are a lot of things wrong with this.  First of all, I think IQ affects rebounding a little bit.  Second, I think IQ adjustments are done after the initial calculation of offensive or defensive efficiency - IE it doesn't impact the ratings, per se, but is considered after the ratings have already been weighted together.
3/2/2013 4:27 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 3/2/2013 2:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rsvphr on 3/1/2013 10:15:00 PM (view original):
I've always understood that IQ on offense affects LP/Per/BH/Pass and on defense just DEF.  REB and SB are unaffected.
I think there are a lot of things wrong with this.  First of all, I think IQ affects rebounding a little bit.  Second, I think IQ adjustments are done after the initial calculation of offensive or defensive efficiency - IE it doesn't impact the ratings, per se, but is considered after the ratings have already been weighted together.
i agree with this
3/2/2013 4:36 PM
Posted by brianxavier on 2/28/2013 4:46:00 PM (view original):
to clarify, I mean that when the program runs it's algorithm and is trying to figure out the result of a play:

does it take all 5 players into consideration when deciding if the team either: scores (perhaps being fouled), turns it over (via bad play, steal, whatever) or shoots but misses (rebound algorithm starts)... and then the result is posted in the play by play taking into account distro, IQ, skills of the players, etc.

Or does the program somehow consider:  player A has the ball --> run program to determine next step which could be --> pass, shoot, make shot, turnover; player b has ball:  pass, shoot, turnover, etc....

I thought you [Gillispie] had said in the past its really just a complex algorithm that determes 3 or 4 different outcomes rather than breaking down each part of an actual possession.  The main outcomes are always either: turnover (steal, bad play), shoot (make or miss, then rebound algorithm), foul.  I know you talked about it when discussing whether assists are just window dressing assigned after the fact rather than something more meaningful associated with passing skill...

If however the program goes step by step via player to player (much more complex IMO) then each individual player would be more important because a very weak player could more likely disrupt the play.... hence I am screwed with a new PG that don't know jack about the flex offense!

I am no mathematician.  I am probably naive how complex these equations could be... perhaps it doesn't matter, but I was just curious what others thought.
we basically know for sure (via admin confirmation) that there is NOT passing and dribbling the ball around in the half court, that kind of stuff. its from a write up from old admin, i think, that the TSF (turnover, shot, foul) decision is known to us. a player starts with the ball, and that player certainly impacts the outcome of the decision in a big way. however, i wouldn't take this to mean that the rest of the team doesnt factor in, too. there are definitely some equations that take into account the whole team (often weighted, some players counting for more), and some that are player driven. it *used* to be the case that a player's shooting % was based on him and him alone (and opponents, but no team mates), but that has been changed per seble - at the time, it was not made clear what all equations team mates were added to, so i can't give you a for-sure example that is only based on the player.

however, given the complexity of the state transitions in the sim (which are not very complex, they are overly simplified to the point it degrades the realism, for those who look closely), you basically have to have complex equations. you pretty much need to throw in the kitchen sink, because with limited states, there are limited equations, so you dont have the option to have a bunch of simple equations instead of fewer, more complex ones.

so, answering your question, its really both. the program considers, player A has the ball, run the function to determine the next step - but the equations within that function definitely operate on more than simply the player with the ball (not necessarily every equation, but some and probably most of them). stuff like rebounding, defense, shooting - those things all take into account teams, not single players, and as that is most of the big stuff, its probably safe to just assume the team factors into everything. even if its not directly factoring in, it usually will indirectly (like, the team ratings/properties go into deciding if you get to the halfcourt offense TSF decision, and who gets the ball - even if after that point, there are equations based on the guy with the ball alone, the chance of him getting there was team-driven, so that will indirectly play into things like, how many points he scores, etc - even if it didnt factor into fg% (which it does, now, after seble's change a few years back)).


3/2/2013 7:56 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 3/2/2013 2:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rsvphr on 3/1/2013 10:15:00 PM (view original):
I've always understood that IQ on offense affects LP/Per/BH/Pass and on defense just DEF.  REB and SB are unaffected.
I think there are a lot of things wrong with this.  First of all, I think IQ affects rebounding a little bit.  Second, I think IQ adjustments are done after the initial calculation of offensive or defensive efficiency - IE it doesn't impact the ratings, per se, but is considered after the ratings have already been weighted together.
Why does it matter when the IQ factor is calculated? Before,after why is when important?
3/3/2013 12:23 AM

It also matters what defense and offense your are running.  M2M requires the highest IQ, and Zone the lowest.  Motion requires the highest and Flex the lowest. That has been documented in the past, unless that has changed.  I have been here over 7 years and I don't know the last time, if ever, the FAQ, Player's Guide, or Hoops 101 have been updated.

3/3/2013 8:14 PM
thanks for the feedback fellas
All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > IQ - Is it more important at PG position?

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.