All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/28/2013 12:37 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/28/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I've shown you evidence of Brady throwing the ball into tight windows.  He doesn't "refuse to."

What evidence do you have that the Pats offense was just as talented as the Colts offense during that time period?  I've presented evidence to the contrary.  

Also, I didn't ask you what Manning's numbers would be if he acted like Brady, I asked you what they would be if he were on the Pats at that time.

And if Manning were better by being "ultra-conservative like Brady" then why isn't he ultra-conservative?

You're arguing with a mental midget.
1/28/2013 2:18 PM
I've shown you evidence of Brady throwing the ball into tight windows.  He doesn't "refuse to."

Something happening at all does not mean it happens as much as it should under normal circumstances.

To put that more simply: Brady throwing into tight windows on occasion doesn't mean he does it as much as other QBs. The reason he doesn't do it as often is because he doesn't have the ability.

Sure, he hits the throws occasionally. Still, other QBs take and make more throws into tight windows than Brady does.
What evidence do you have that the Pats offense was just as talented as the Colts offense during that time period?  I've presented evidence to the contrary. 
The Patriots TEAM was more talented than other teams on the whole, and they made plays at the right times to win games. I would argue that Peyton Manning is the REASON the Colts offense appeared talented.

In fact, this being What If Sports and all, I'll pose you a what if:

If you switch Brady and Peyton Manning and change nothing else, I think you never hear a whisper of Brady being considered "great". I think Manning MADE the Colts great while Brady was made "great" by the system and the talented team. Put Manning in that system with that team and he wins 8 Super Bowls and has better stats overall (less INTs and higher completion percentage).
Also, I didn't ask you what Manning's numbers would be if he acted like Brady, I asked you what they would be if he were on the Pats at that time.
Everything else being constant, Manning's numbers would always be better than Brady's except in areas which are artificially changed due to the difference in style of play (Brady being more conservative, Manning actually willing to make plays).
And if Manning were better by being "ultra-conservative like Brady" then why isn't he ultra-conservative?
Because it's NOT BETTER to be ultra-conservative. That's the point.

Sure, it inflates stats. It lowers INTs because you are exposing yourself to less risk. It raises completion percentage because you are throwing more short passes that are easier to complete.

However, it's overall effectiveness is actually lower, because you don't make big plays very often and you miss or give up on a ton of great opportunities.

I'm just saying Brady doesn't have the skill to make those plays consistently the way Manning does, and he's smart enough to know it, so he sticks to the system of not throwing deep as often, not throwing into tight spaces as often, and using screens and checkdowns a lot.

Bottom line: Brady plays conservative because that's what the system dictates and because he doesn't have the skill set to do otherwise and not cripple the team. 

Brady is like driving an old classic car. You take it slow and easy because you don't want to risk any unnecessary damage and you'll get there eventually anyway. Asking Manning to play as conservative as Brady would be like having a Lamborghini and driving it 25 MPH everywhere you go. Sure, it's less risk and you'll probably get there anyway, but it wastes much of the point.
Refuses to throw into tight windows?!?!?!  Hahaha!  So, Brady has monster stats without forcing a ball into tight spaces.
Brady has "monster stats" because he doesn't get touched (that's a great offensive line) and his receivers race up tons of Yards After Catch (YAC). He also plays with some talented receivers.

He does what the system is set up for him to do and benefits from it. Matt Cassell was able to do the same thing when there was no Brady.

BOTTOM LINE: You take any decent NFL QB, put him in that system with those team mates, and the results are no different than they have been with Brady. With a real superstar like Manning, the results would be better.
Once again, you prove yourself to not know what you are saying.
Just because you miss the point (perhaps deliberately) doesn't mean I don't know what I'm saying.

I demonstrate over and over again how it's the system and not Brady, but you refuse to listen. Again, this doesn't make my argument any less valid.
These are tight windows...fyi.
You've got to be kidding.

Just so you know, a tight window is a throw where there is pretty much one spot where the receiver can catch it, and if it's put anywhere else there is a defender to knock it down or intercept it.

On both of those throws, all Brady has to do is put it in front of a receiver who clearly had a step on the man closest to him. It's not an easy throw, but it's also not a tight window. It's a throw a good QB should be able to hit most of the time.

You want a tight window? Big Ben throwing to Santonio Holmes, where Holmes had to go up and get it and get his toes down. That's a throw into a tight window. Any lower and it's tipped or intercepted, and Ben knew it and wished he hadn't thrown it until it was complete. That's a risky throw the likes of which Brady doesn't even attempt. Guess what, though? It's a SUPER BOWL WINNING throw all the same. Big Ben actually MADE a play to win the SB. Brady just takes what the system gives him and is too risk-averse to ever make a throw like that, even if it was the difference between winning or losing the SB.

1/28/2013 2:57 PM
I've shown you evidence of Brady throwing the ball into tight windows.  He doesn't "refuse to."
Something happening at all does not mean it happens as much as it should under normal circumstances. 
  • OK, but I've been under the belief, because I've seen it often with my own 2 eyes, that he does have a pretty accurate deep ball.  Are you telling me my eyes are lying? Are you a Pats fan that watches the Pats for 16 games a year, and you see more games than me?  Although I'd say he's much much MUCH more accurate 10 yards and in, and he does the best job of any QB in getting the ball in the hands of a receiver, and giving him the best chance to do something after the catch.  He's the best at that.  It's one of his best assets.
What evidence do you have that the Pats offense was just as talented as the Colts offense during that time period?  I've presented evidence to the contrary. 
The Patriots TEAM was more talented than other teams on the whole, and they made plays at the right times to win games. I would argue that Peyton Manning is the REASON the Colts offense appeared talented.
  • I'll ask again.  What weapons do the Pats have that other great teams don't have?  And if you say "a great o-line" again, this conversation is over.  He did not always have a great o-line (including 2 Super Bowl wins) and gets rid of the ball into the hands of a receiver quicker than the majority of QBs I've seen play.


As for Brady's style of play, the conservative nature you're describing, I'd again argue that he didn't have the offensive weapons to be incredibly confident throwing the ball far down the field.  If I throw into tight coverage with Randy Moss, Reggie Wayne, or Marvin Harrison trying to catch the ball, I am much more confident in those players making the play than I would be throwing deep to David Patten.  What percentages of deep throws are right on the money, exactly where you wanted them? For the best QBs, a third of them at best? (I think that's generous) The receiver has to make a play.  If I don't trust that he can, in tight coverage, I'll gladly throw to my slot receiver and pick up 8 yards.  But when Brady had a legit deep threat? His team put up record-setting numbers.

Also - What is this "system" you're describing, that's different than other teams, and makes Brady so great? Why don't other teams who struggle use the same "system?"

And thanks for clearing up what you meant by "tight window." I figured you meant a spot where the ball needs to be, otherwise the WR can't catch it.  Which is what those 2 plays were.  Accurate, down the field passes.

1/28/2013 3:14 PM
OK, but I've been under the belief, because I've seen it often with my own 2 eyes, that he does have a pretty accurate deep ball.  Are you telling me my eyes are lying?

In a word: Yes.

In more: I don't think Brady throws an accurate deep ball most of the time. It's not that he's terrible at it - he's just not good enough at it for me to believe anyone who says he's "great", "elite" or anything approximating those terms.
Although I'd say he's much much MUCH more accurate 10 yards and in, and he does the best job of any QB in getting the ball in the hands of a receiver, and giving him the best chance to do something after the catch.  He's the best at that.  It's one of his best assets.

I disagree 100 percent.

You're basically saying Brady is so accurate he puts the ball in places where it gives the receiver the maximum chance to create something after the catch, and that's the opposite of what I'm saying.

I say Brady isn't that accurate, particularly over longer distances, and the only reason he appears accurate is because his completion percentage is artificially enhanced due to short throws.
 What weapons do the Pats have that other great teams don't have?

We've been over this and over this.

The team as a collective unit has always been quite talented. In several years the defense carried them and even cheated them to a Super Bowl win I maintain should be stripped. Some years the offensive line barely let Brady get touched. Some years the receivers were phenomenal.

When it all came together they went 16-0 and should have destroyed the Giants in the SB but Brady was suddenly rattled and the offense that averaged over 36 points per game in the regular season suddenly couldn't score more than 14.

The players can be changed in the Pats system and they will still win, and that includes Brady. We saw that is unquestionably true when he went down and Cassell replaced him and they still went 11-5. That speaks volumes.

I guess when Brady went down and they went 11-5 that was the most incredible fluke of all time because obviously the team had zero weapons according to you.
What is this "system" you're describing, that's different than other teams, and makes Brady so great? Why don't other teams who struggle use the same "system?"

It's the way the Patriots play football. That's as simple as I can put it.

Take Brady and put him on, say, the Cleveland Browns and they lose the same games they always lose. Replace Brady with, say Matt Cassell, the team still wins like it always does.

Brady is not the difference maker. Neither is any other player in the Pats system. In fact, the only player I would argue was a great difference maker in terms of his individual talent supplying a great deal more team wins was Randy Moss. He was the real MVP that year and the single biggest reason the team went 16-0, but as usual, Brady got all the credit because he's the most over-rated player ever.
I figured you meant a spot where the ball needs to be, otherwise the WR can't catch it.  Which is what those 2 plays were.  Accurate, down the field passes.

Every NFL QB is expected to be able to make throws in "a spot where the ball needs to be, otherwise the WR can't catch it.". That's what an NFL QB does or he probably doesn't last long. They all can't do it consistently, but those guys don't survive long in the NFL. That doesn't make either of those plays a tight window. 

No wonder so many people over rate Brady the way they do - when its him throwing, an accurate down field pass that any decent NFL QB should make most of the time becomes an amazing throw into a tight window.

Puh-leeze. Those throws were on the mark, but there was no tight window. His guy clearly had a step on the defender in both. Stop sipping so much Brady worship kool-aid.

1/28/2013 3:39 PM
Posted by 05nomar05 on 1/28/2013 12:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/28/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I've shown you evidence of Brady throwing the ball into tight windows.  He doesn't "refuse to."

What evidence do you have that the Pats offense was just as talented as the Colts offense during that time period?  I've presented evidence to the contrary.  

Also, I didn't ask you what Manning's numbers would be if he acted like Brady, I asked you what they would be if he were on the Pats at that time.

And if Manning were better by being "ultra-conservative like Brady" then why isn't he ultra-conservative?

You're arguing with a mental midget.
 See above
1/28/2013 3:43 PM
Great deep ball.


and again.....

1/28/2013 3:47 PM
Funny thing, both those passes, he has the ball out of his hands in 3 seconds.  Perfect deep balls and out of his hands in less than 3 seconds.

Brady does suck.

1/28/2013 4:59 PM
OK biz, I'm going to break down your response as best as I can.  This is one of the worst posts you've had when it comes to substance-to-words ratio.

OK, but I've been under the belief, because I've seen it often with my own 2 eyes, that he does have a pretty accurate deep ball.  Are you telling me my eyes are lying?

In a word: Yes.

In more: I don't think Brady throws an accurate deep ball most of the time. It's not that he's terrible at it - he's just not good enough at it for me to believe anyone who says he's "great", "elite" or anything approximating those terms.  *(We disagree.  You see what you see, and I see what I see.  What I see also happens to be what most people see)*
Although I'd say he's much much MUCH more accurate 10 yards and in, and he does the best job of any QB in getting the ball in the hands of a receiver, and giving him the best chance to do something after the catch.  He's the best at that.  It's one of his best assets.

I disagree 100 percent. 

You're basically saying Brady is so accurate he puts the ball in places where it gives the receiver the maximum chance to create something after the catch, and that's the opposite of what I'm saying. *(You just said this above.  Less words.)*

I say Brady isn't that accurate, particularly over longer distances, and the only reason he appears accurate is because his completion percentage is artificially enhanced due to short throws.  *(We'll disagree again.  How is it his completion percentage is so high, because you say he throws so many short throws, but he's also not accurate when it comes to those 10 and under passes?  He isn't JUST throwing screen passes and dump-offs.)*
 What weapons do the Pats have that other great teams don't have?

We've been over this and over this.  *(Yes, we have)*

The team as a collective unit has always been quite talented. *(Yes, you keep saying that.)* In several years the defense carried them and even cheated them to a Super Bowl win I maintain should be stripped. *(Not sure how that helps Brady put up the numbers he has.)* Some years the offensive line barely let Brady get touched *(false. his first 2 Super Bowls they were poor to average. He also gets rid of the ball faster than most quarterbacks.)* Some years the receivers were phenomenal. *(Yes, they few years he had great receivers, they put up record-setting numbers.  Most years they didn't, Brady put up above-average to great numbers, depending on your point of view. He's had a legit deep threat, capable of spreading the field and running past the defense once, in Randy Moss.)*

When it all came together they went 16-0 and should have destroyed the Giants in the SB but Brady was suddenly rattled and the offense that averaged over 36 points per game in the regular season suddenly couldn't score more than 14.  *(Yes, discredit the greatest offense of all time because one game they went up against a hot, avid pass-rush, that beat 3 legit playoff teams on the road prior to that.  Again, Tom Brady was at the helm of the greatest offense of all time.)*

The players can be changed in the Pats system and they will still win, and that includes Brady. We saw that is unquestionably true when he went down and Cassell replaced him and they still went 11-5. That speaks volumes. *(That's one year. And explain Drew Bledsoe.)*

I guess when Brady went down and they went 11-5 that was the most incredible fluke of all time because obviously the team had zero weapons according to you. *(Didn't you make this point already? Explain Drew Bledsoe.)*
What is this "system" you're describing, that's different than other teams, and makes Brady so great? Why don't other teams who struggle use the same "system?"

It's the way the Patriots play football. That's as simple as I can put it.  *(I don't want you to make it simple.  You're basing Brady's offensive success on "the system" and you can't explain what that means.)*

Take Brady and put him on, say, the Cleveland Browns and they lose the same games they always lose. Replace Brady with, say Matt Cassell, the team still wins like it always does. *(We disagree, because I think Tom Brady has value as a QB.)*

Brady is not the difference maker.  Neither is any other player in the Pats system. In fact, the only player I would argue was a great difference maker in terms of his individual talent supplying a great deal more team wins was Randy Moss. He was the real MVP that year and the single biggest reason the team went 16-0, but as usual, Brady got all the credit because he's the most over-rated player ever.  *(If Moss isn't there, Brady puts up normal, very good Brady numbers (probably higher since he just got Welker) and they aren't the greatest offense of all-time, just a great one. Yes, Moss was a fantastic receiver.)* 
I figured you meant a spot where the ball needs to be, otherwise the WR can't catch it.  Which is what those 2 plays were.  Accurate, down the field passes.

Every NFL QB is expected to be able to make throws in "a spot where the ball needs to be, otherwise the WR can't catch it.". That's what an NFL QB does or he probably doesn't last long. They all can't do it consistently, but those guys don't survive long in the NFL. That doesn't make either of those plays a tight window.  *(The Stallworth play was a very good play, but I agree a play great QBs make most of the time.  Including Brady.  That said, it's on the money, and led to a TD. The Vereen pass was fantastic.  There's nowhere else that ball can go and be caught.  And I didn't realize you wrote the definition on what a "tight window" means, like you I didn't realize what you meant when you inaccurately wrote "safety valve." Apparently there has to be someone over the top there too, otherwise it's not a window, in football terms, of course.)*

No wonder so many people over rate Brady the way they do - when its him throwing, an accurate down field pass that any decent NFL QB should make most of the time becomes an amazing throw into a tight window. *(You said this last paragraph)*

Puh-leeze. Those throws were on the mark, but there was no tight window. *(You said this already)* His guy clearly had a step on the defender in both. *(Did you watch the 2nd pass? Like you watched the video?)* Stop sipping so much Brady worship kool-aid.


1/28/2013 5:06 PM
biz - if you don't feel like reading the whole thing, my main points would be A) you're giving farrrr too much credit to the offensive line, based on statistical evidence and Brady's release time and B) you can't say "the system" made Brady but then can't define what "the system" means.
1/28/2013 5:46 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/28/2013 5:06:00 PM (view original):
biz - if you don't feel like reading the whole thing, my main points would be A) you're giving farrrr too much credit to the offensive line, based on statistical evidence and Brady's release time and B) you can't say "the system" made Brady but then can't define what "the system" means.
It's funny, every point that biz makes against Brady can be said about any other great QB.  It's beyond stupid.
1/28/2013 6:02 PM
While I'm not in the Brady is massively overrated camp, I was once again frustrated this weekend by the general unwillingness to even think about re-writing his legacy.  Someone called in to a talk radio show wanting to put Elway above him and was immediately dismissed because "Elway lost too many big games."

Since his last Super Bowl, Brady has lost two Super Bowls as a heavy favorite, 2 AFC title games (one at home), and gone 1 and done in the playoffs 2 times, with both those losses coming at home.  If you just make it since 2007 when he got some better weapons and his numbers took off, he's either been upset in the Super Bowl or knocked out of the playoffs at  home every season.  I'd say he's lost as many big games as Elway, it's just that Elway lost his early in his career and Brady lost his late in his career, so he had a good reputation before this later segment.  In both men's case, you can't ignore either part.  I'm not saying Elway is clearly above Brady, but to dismiss the comparison out of hand is just silly at this point in Brady's career.

And I will say this - the Brady as the best all-time ship has sailed, he's come up small in too many big games in recent years to move past a Montana.  I suppose I could rethink that if he wins a couple more, which I don't see happening, but the 4th isn't going to get it done by itself.
1/29/2013 8:54 AM
Funny thing, both those passes, he has the ball out of his hands in 3 seconds.  Perfect deep balls and out of his hands in less than 3 seconds.

Funny thing, both those passes, his receiver clearly gets a step on his man and has space to make the catch.

Another funny thing, his receiver is also past the last line of defense and gets many YAC on both catches.

Both of these things had NOTHING to do with Brady, but when the stats show up at the end of the game and the end of the season, he'll have a high completion percentage from receivers getting open and a ton of yards from YAC. Brady will get all the credit and the receivers will get very little credit. THAT is why he's over rated.

By the way, these "perfect deep balls" are throws any decent NFL QB should make most of the time in those circumstances. Making them means he did his job. It does not make him "great", "elite", or anything of the sort.

Then again, when you sip Brady worship kool-aid all day like you, I'm sure when Brady does his job and actually accomplishes ANYTHING on the football field, you have to tout it like it's the greatest thing ever.
OK biz, I'm going to break down your response as best as I can.  This is one of the worst posts you've had when it comes to substance-to-words ratio.

Everything I say has substance or I wouldn't waste time typing it. You might want to quit with the thinly veiled insult attempts because they don't contribute to a positive discussion.
We disagree.  You see what you see, and I see what I see.  What I see also happens to be what most people see.

You over rate Brady, and so do most people. This only confirms my point that he is over rated by most people.
You just said this above.  Less words.

If I repeat something, it means I feel it needs repeating so that you understand. If I use a lot of words, it's because I think that may help you understand. It doesn't always work that way, but I try.
How is it his completion percentage is so high, because you say he throws so many short throws, but he's also not accurate when it comes to those 10 and under passes?

Of course he's more accurate at shorter passes. So is any QB. Again, you and many others think Brady is great for doing what any other decent NFL QB should do. You act like it's some great accomplishment just because it's Brady.
false. his first 2 Super Bowls they were poor to average. He also gets rid of the ball faster than most quarterbacks.

True. The offensive line rates as one of the best in the league in most years Brady has been QB. I can also count many times each game where Brady has over 5 seconds to read the defense, which is an eternity for an NFL QB. He gets more of those chances than most QBs ever see.
Yes, discredit the greatest offense of all time because one game they went up against a hot, avid pass-rush, that beat 3 legit playoff teams on the road prior to that.  Again, Tom Brady was at the helm of the greatest offense of all time

I will discredit that offense because the FACT is it  and Brady couldn't get the job done on the biggest stage. Brady actually got hit, and when he gets hit, he sucks.

Of course you'll over rate Brady again by discussing how he was the QB in that great offense. Put any other decent NFL QB in there and they do just as well. It wasn't about Brady at all, but you just don't get that.
That's one year. And explain Drew Bledsoe.

Yes, it is. It's one year that CONCLUSIVELY PROVES Brady meant very little to the team's success.

Bledsoe was a good QB in his day, and even led the Pats to an SB himself. Funny, no one talks about that anymore.
Didn't you make this point already?

Yes. Again, when I repeat something, it's to make sure you get it.
I don't want you to make it simple.  You're basing Brady's offensive success on "the system" and you can't explain what that means.

Sure I can. Conservative based passing which only throws downfield where receivers are or will be close to wide open. Short routes most of the time, with lots of checkdowns when long routes aren't open. Tons of screens. A running game used to wisely to complement that. An offense that is based on creating mismatches and using deception.
We disagree, because I think Tom Brady has value as a QB.

Yeah, the same value as Cassell, a guy who prior to that year never started a game in the NFL. I wonder when people will start proclaiming Cassell as "elite"? I think if Brady would have ended his career with that injury, Cassell would be over rated now because of the system there.

Apparently there has to be someone over the top there too, otherwise it's not a window, in football terms, of course

Absolutely. If the guy is open it's not a window, much less a tight one. That's common sense.
It's funny, every point that biz makes against Brady can be said about any other great QB.  It's beyond stupid.
Other QBs get the credit they deserve. Brady gets far more than he deserves. THAT is the point.

1/29/2013 9:38 AM
Funny thing, both those passes, he has the ball out of his hands in 3 seconds.  Perfect deep balls and out of his hands in less than 3 seconds.

Funny thing, both those passes, his receiver clearly gets a step on his man and has space to make the catch. *(He doesn't on the second one. Are you watching the same play? It would make sense if that's what you see, since you claim you also see Brady as an average QB.)*

Another funny thing, his receiver is also past the last line of defense and gets many YAC on both catches. *(I've explained already that Brady does a very good job on short passes on being incredibly accurate, allowing his players to get the most after the catch.  In this example, it's true on the deep passes.  If he's not perfect, there's no YAC.  You argue that Brady accumulates an inordinate amount of yardage on YAC, but then claim that he doesn't do a good job of hitting guys accurately where they can get YAC.  Which one is it?)*

Both of these things had NOTHING to do with Brady, but when the stats show up at the end of the game and the end of the season, he'll have a high completion percentage from receivers getting open and a ton of yards from YAC. Brady will get all the credit and the receivers will get very little credit. THAT is why he's over rated. *(covered above.)*

By the way, these "perfect deep balls" are throws any decent NFL QB should make most of the time in those circumstances. Making them means he did his job. It does not make him "great", "elite", or anything of the sort. *(Why are there quotes here? - "perfect deep balls."  They don't need quotes.  And do you compliment any QB? Or when Rodgers makes a perfect 30 yard pass, you say "whatever, any great QB should make a perfect pass there.  Why are we complimenting him?")*

Then again, when you sip Brady worship kool-aid all day like you, I'm sure when Brady does his job and actually accomplishes ANYTHING on the football field, you have to tout it like it's the greatest thing ever. *(I never have claimed this.  Please stop exaggerating for effect.)*
OK biz, I'm going to break down your response as best as I can.  This is one of the worst posts you've had when it comes to substance-to-words ratio.

Everything I say has substance or I wouldn't waste time typing it. You might want to quit with the thinly veiled insult attempts because they don't contribute to a positive discussion. *(I'm not trying to veil them.  And If you say something over and over and over in different words, it also doesn't contribute to a positive discussion.  It's annoying.  Try this - Tom Brady is not overrated.  I don't think anyone should think he's overrated.  If anyone thinks he's overrated, I'm not sure they watch enough of his games, because he's certainly not overrated.  The statement "Tom Brady is overrated" is simply not true. He's overrated? I don't think so.  He is not overrated.  There, does anyone think anything more of Tom Brady because I repeated myself? You write incredibly long posts, I'm trying to get you to be more concise to help with the discussion.)*
We disagree.  You see what you see, and I see what I see.  What I see also happens to be what most people see.

You over rate Brady, and so do most people. This only confirms my point that he is over rated by most people. 
You just said this above.  Less words.

If I repeat something, it means I feel it needs repeating so that you understand. If I use a lot of words, it's because I think that may help you understand. It doesn't always work that way, but I try. *(If you write"Puh-leeze. That was no tight window" when you've already made your point, that doesn't help me understand ****. Less words.)*
How is it his completion percentage is so high, because you say he throws so many short throws, but he's also not accurate when it comes to those 10 and under passes? 

Of course he's more accurate at shorter passes. So is any QB. Again, you and many others think Brady is great for doing what any other decent NFL QB should do. You act like it's some great accomplishment just because it's Brady. *(You told me he wasn't accurate inside of 10 yards.)*
false. his first 2 Super Bowls they were poor to average. He also gets rid of the ball faster than most quarterbacks.

True. The offensive line rates as one of the best in the league in most years Brady has been QB. I can also count many times each game where Brady has over 5 seconds to read the defense, which is an eternity for an NFL QB. He gets more of those chances than most QBs ever see. *(We are watching different games. If you watch the video that you refuse to watch, you'll see the ball is out of his hand within 3 seconds more often than not.)*
Yes, discredit the greatest offense of all time because one game they went up against a hot, avid pass-rush, that beat 3 legit playoff teams on the road prior to that.  Again, Tom Brady was at the helm of the greatest offense of all time

I will discredit that offense *(the greatest of all-time)* because the FACT is it  and Brady couldn't get the job done on the biggest stage. *(He put his team up with 2:30 left in the game.)* Brady actually got hit, and when he gets hit, he sucks. *(Name the QB who throws well while they're getting hit.)*

Of course you'll over rate Brady again by discussing how he was the QB in that great offense. Put any other decent NFL QB in there and they do just as well. It wasn't about Brady at all, but you just don't get that. *(No, i don't understand how a team can set passing records with just any decent QB.)*
That's one year. And explain Drew Bledsoe.

Yes, it is. It's one year that CONCLUSIVELY PROVES Brady meant very little to the team's success. *(Bullshit.  How? 1 year, in itself, is a small sample.  You think the Colts are consistently an 11 win team if we run this season over and over again?)*

Bledsoe was a good QB in his day, and even led the Pats to an SB himself. Funny, no one talks about that anymore. *(He was a very good QB in his day, but was terrible with the same system and great weapons you claim Brady had. He made (not won) a Super Bowl with mostly different players and a HOF head coach. And are you putting individual accomplishments on making Super Bowls now? Because Brady made 5.)*
Didn't you make this point already? 

Yes. Again, when I repeat something, it's to make sure you get it.  *(Didn't you make this point already? I'm not 8, I can grasp a concept the first time you tell me.)*
I don't want you to make it simple.  You're basing Brady's offensive success on "the system" and you can't explain what that means.

Sure I can. Conservative based passing which only throws downfield where receivers are or will be close to wide open. Short routes most of the time, with lots of checkdowns when long routes aren't open. Tons of screens. A running game used to wisely to complement that. An offense that is based on creating mismatches and using deception. *(You've described most teams, (maybe less now with the pistol emergence) minus the "tons of screens", which I'm not positive is true in general, although I would guess they run more bubble screens than most teams. So the system that makes Brady incredibly successful is similar to the one most teams use.  OK.)*
We disagree, because I think Tom Brady has value as a QB.

Yeah, the same value as Cassell, a guy who prior to that year never started a game in the NFL. I wonder when people will start proclaiming Cassell as "elite"? I think if Brady would have ended his career with that injury, Cassell would be over rated now because of the system there. *(Yes, Brady was on a team that put up the best offensive numbers of all time, and Cassel took over almost the exact same offense and put up just good numbers.  CASSEL IS ELITE!)*

Apparently there has to be someone over the top there too, otherwise it's not a window, in football terms, of course

Absolutely. If the guy is open it's not a window, much less a tight one. That's common sense. *(Someone can be covered without help over the top. You understand that, right? Do you think EVERYONE is open if the safety blitzes?)*
It's funny, every point that biz makes against Brady can be said about any other great QB.  It's beyond stupid.
Other QBs get the credit they deserve. Brady gets far more than he deserves. THAT is the point.
1/29/2013 10:10 AM
He doesn't on the second one. Are you watching the same play?

Yes. By the time the ball arrives, he clearly has a step on his defender which allows him to make the catch. The defender played poorly and allowed that to happen, yes, but he's ahead of his defender.

It's a ball that probably shouldn't have been thrown. A rare downfield venture where Brady counts on his man to get a step, and in this case, he does just that and it makes Brady look good when it was actually a bad decision. Of course he is throwing close to his own end zone and near the sideline, meaning if he does end up with an INT - if the defender had played it well that probably would have happened - then its a long field for a return and the sideline helps defend against a pick six.
If he's not perfect, there's no YAC.


Sure there is. I've seen plenty of Brady's throws be less than perfect and receivers still turn them into YAC.
You argue that Brady accumulates an inordinate amount of yardage on YAC, but then claim that he doesn't do a good job of hitting guys accurately where they can get YAC.  Which one is it?

You make the mistake of assuming perfect throws are necessary to get YAC, and they aren't.

Brady makes accurate passes on short routes much of the time, as would be expected of any decent NFL QB. That leads to a lot of YAC.

He also isn't very accurate throwing into tight windows or downfield. He has his occasional moments, but most of the time, he's average at best in those areas.
Why are there quotes here? - "perfect deep balls."  They don't need quotes. 

Oh, they most certainly DO need quotes, because while you label them as "perfect deep balls", they are nothing of the sort.  They do their job but rely on the receiver to get a step, and a perfect deep ball is one that can fit in even when the defender has extremely tight coverage. Neither of these fits that by a  long shot.
And do you compliment any QB? Or when Rodgers makes a perfect 30 yard pass, you say "whatever, any great QB should make a perfect pass there.  Why are we complimenting him?

I give QBs their due when they deserve it. Brady just doesn't deserve it as often as you and many others seem to think he does.
I never have claimed this.  Please stop exaggerating for effect

I'm exaggerating nothing. On several occasions in this thread, you and others have given Brady credit for doing something special or amazing or great when it was simply him doing his job. If any other QB does the same thing, it doesn't even get noticed most of the time, but when it's Brady, any little thing he does makes him "great" to those who drink the Brady kool-aid.
I'm not trying to veil them.  And If you say something over and over and over in different words, it also doesn't contribute to a positive discussion.  It's annoying.

When people show that they understand things when I say them once, I'll stop repeating them.
You write incredibly long posts, I'm trying to get you to be more concise to help with the discussion.

I say what I feel needs to be said. Period. If I could somehow get through the miasma of stubbornness that surrounds so many people, I could be much more concise.
If you write"Puh-leeze. That was no tight window" when you've already made your point, that doesn't help me understand ****. Less words.


I wrote that for emphasis because I feel you need to understand how powerful the point is. Again, if I thought you got that without the emphasis, I wouldn't have added it.

You told me he wasn't accurate inside of 10 yards.

No, I didn't.

We are watching different games. If you watch the video that you refuse to watch, you'll see the ball is out of his hand within 3 seconds more often than not.

I watch the actual games, not some video doctored by a Brady lover to make him look good.

In the actual games, he gets a TON of time to throw with astonishing regularity.
 

He put his team up with 2:30 left in the game

He shouldn't have had to bring his team back from being down. They should have had the game sewn up by that point. They didn't because he sucked. They still lost. I'm glad they did because it kept him from becoming more over rated than he already is.

Name the QB who throws well while they're getting hit.

Most of them throw better than Brady, because most of them are used to getting hit. 

It's just like I always say: Put any other decent NFL QB into the same exact circumstance as Brady and you get about the same result. He's nothing special.

No, i don't understand how a team can set passing records with just any decent QB.

Great offensive line and phenomenal receivers, that's how. It had little to do with him and everything to do with the talent around him, and the next year with Cassell conclusively proved that.

Bullshit.  How? 1 year, in itself, is a small sample.

That's called DENIAL.

All we have is one year to go by, and it says there was not much difference between your almighty Brady and a guy who never started an NFL game prior to that year.

"Ohhh, but it's small sample size" - excuses like this are the BS.

Stop making excuses for Brady and trying to defend how he is special when the evidence clearly says he's not.
 

Didn't you make this point already? I'm not 8, I can grasp a concept the first time you tell me.

You've displayed many times that you CAN'T get it the first time. That's why I keep having to repeat things.
 

So the system that makes Brady incredibly successful is similar to the one most teams use.

Most teams are not as conservative with long passes. Most teams don't run nearly that man screens. Most teams don't rely on nearly as much deception.

In short, most of that is fairly unique to the Patriots, especially to the level they use it. I'm starting to think you don't even pay attention to the actual games. 

Yes, Brady was on a team that put up the best offensive numbers of all time, and Cassel took over almost the exact same offense and put up just good numbers.  CASSEL IS ELITE!

He's just as elite as Brady. 

Send Brady to KC and keep Cassell in NE and see what happens. I guarantee you Brady's not playing in SBs or putting up the numbers he has in that system in NE, but I think Cassell would have don the same things Brady has in NE.  It's the team and the system, not Brady.
 

Someone can be covered without help over the top. You understand that, right? Do you think EVERYONE is open if the safety blitzes?

Covered is one thing. Tight coverage requiring a precise and accurate throw is quite another.
 


 



1/29/2013 10:24 AM
Regarding that 2nd play, I've said earlier that we shouldn't punish Brady for trying to push the ball into tight coverage when he doesn't have great receivers, and you've told me that the great QBs have to make those throws. He does that here, and you criticize him for doing so.  Which is it?  

When I said "if he's not perfect, there's no YAC," I meant on these plays.  

Brady led a team to record-setting offensive numbers.  Cassel took the same great squad and put up good numbers.  Are you having trouble seeing the difference?
Bledsoe struggled with a team with below average weapons and a coach you say isn't worth anything and Brady led this team to a championship.

Also I have the ability to understand what you're trying to say.  Repeating it changes nothing.  I'll try again.

Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.
Tom Brady is not overrated.

You see how that accomplished nothing, and really is just annoying?


Also if you put Brady on KC, I would guess he puts up similar numbers to what he did pre-Moss.

Re: the videos above, they require precise, accurate throws.  I'm starting to understand how you can discredit Brady...you're just seeing different stuff.  Maybe you're wearing funny glasses or something?

What team do you root for?

 


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All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens

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