All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/18/2013 9:50 PM
BB couldn't wait for an excuse to bench Bledsoe came along....he wanted to go to Brady, but he had no track record to make that move at that point...
1/19/2013 8:41 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/18/2013 4:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by moranis on 1/18/2013 4:22:00 PM (view original):
Not that I agree with the looney arguing Brady is overrated, but in the first Superbowl against the Rams this is Brady's line

16 of 27, 145 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT, 1 rush for 3 yards, 2 sacks for 11 yards

He had a monster game in 2003 and was pretty average in 2004 (McNabb way out performed him, except for the 3 picks).

Yes. If only Brady could have gone an additional 7 for 18 with 1 TD and 3 INT, he would have been as good as McNabb that year.
so you agree Brady managed the game in 2 of the 3 wins. 

For some comparison, here is Trent Dilfer's Superbowl

12 of 25 153 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT, 1 rush for 0 yards, 3 sacks for 20 yards

Dilfer had such great WR's like Brandon Stokley, Qadry Ismail, Jermaine Lewis, Ben Coates, and an over the hill Shannon Sharpe.  Of course they had a great defense and Jamal Lewis and Priest Holmes running the ball.

1/19/2013 9:51 AM
Somebody really said McNabb played better "except for the 3 picks"?

Wow.
1/19/2013 10:22 AM
You should double check Brady's stats in the Philly SB before you say he managed that game. You don't have to throw 50+ passes.

I've never seen a Tom Brady/Trent Dilfer comparison before this thread. Now there's at least 2.
1/19/2013 10:25 AM
Posted by edsortails on 1/19/2013 9:51:00 AM (view original):
Somebody really said McNabb played better "except for the 3 picks"?

Wow.
He actually said he "way out-performed him."
1/19/2013 10:36 AM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2013 4:45:00 PM (view original):

I'm telling you that Brown, Givens, Patten, Branch, etc, etc, might not be the turds you're making them out to be. 

Mike, if I can find some time this weekend, I'll list some advanced stats that attempt to judge WRs based on data that doesnt rely so much on what the QB does for them. The stuff is fairly new, and you'll probably take the numbers with a grain of salt, but I'm confident they wouldnt be too favorable to these guys. I liked Brown and Branch, but not as great #1s over the course of their careers. The rest of those guys were probably so-so.
1/19/2013 3:58 PM
Troy Brown was essentially Wes Welker of the early Pats.  He would consistently be the slot receiver with the majority of the 3rd down looks from Brady.  Pretty much the same skill set as Welker with a less experienced Brady throwing it to him.
1/19/2013 6:43 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/19/2013 10:22:00 AM (view original):
You should double check Brady's stats in the Philly SB before you say he managed that game. You don't have to throw 50+ passes.

I've never seen a Tom Brady/Trent Dilfer comparison before this thread. Now there's at least 2.
I watched the game and can look at the stats to know that Brady managed that game.  He did so very well, but that is exactly what he did.  He didn't make any mistakes and handed the ball off nearly as much as dropped back to throw his dink and dunk type passes (which is what he did most of that game).  New England won that game because Brady didn't make any mistakes and the Patriots forced 4 turnovers, not because Brady went out there and won it.
1/19/2013 7:03 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/19/2013 10:22:00 AM (view original):
You should double check Brady's stats in the Philly SB before you say he managed that game. You don't have to throw 50+ passes.

I've never seen a Tom Brady/Trent Dilfer comparison before this thread. Now there's at least 2.
He had almost a 70% completion percentage but still just over 7 YPA, over .5 YPA less than he had in the regular season that year while only completing a little over 60% of his passes.   His 2 TDs were a combined 6 yards.    He was efficient, but yes, he managed that game as opposed to the Pats airing it out.  That's a reasonable statement.  The ridiculous statement is the idea that McNabb "way" outperformed him in anyway.  Even removing the 3 picks, which you can't do, all you're left with is an extra TD pass and 121 yards against an extra 18 attempts.  His YPA was actually slightly lower than Brady's.

I watched that game as an agonized Eagles fan - there is zero question which quarterback played better.

And yes, the Dilfer thing is hilarious.  "LOOK - Brady and Dilfer had similar numbers in their first Super Bowl wins!!!!!"  Sure, and then Brady went on to 2 more wins, 2 more appearances, another chance to go this year, and being in the hunt every other year while eventually putting up all-time type numbers, and Dilfer went on to be... Trent Dilfer.
1/19/2013 8:25 PM
Posted by AlCheez on 1/19/2013 7:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/19/2013 10:22:00 AM (view original):
You should double check Brady's stats in the Philly SB before you say he managed that game. You don't have to throw 50+ passes.

I've never seen a Tom Brady/Trent Dilfer comparison before this thread. Now there's at least 2.
He had almost a 70% completion percentage but still just over 7 YPA, over .5 YPA less than he had in the regular season that year while only completing a little over 60% of his passes.   His 2 TDs were a combined 6 yards.    He was efficient, but yes, he managed that game as opposed to the Pats airing it out.  That's a reasonable statement.  The ridiculous statement is the idea that McNabb "way" outperformed him in anyway.  Even removing the 3 picks, which you can't do, all you're left with is an extra TD pass and 121 yards against an extra 18 attempts.  His YPA was actually slightly lower than Brady's.

I watched that game as an agonized Eagles fan - there is zero question which quarterback played better.

And yes, the Dilfer thing is hilarious.  "LOOK - Brady and Dilfer had similar numbers in their first Super Bowl wins!!!!!"  Sure, and then Brady went on to 2 more wins, 2 more appearances, another chance to go this year, and being in the hunt every other year while eventually putting up all-time type numbers, and Dilfer went on to be... Trent Dilfer.
I just posted Dilfer's stats to show what a game manager's stats look like, which is pretty much what Brady was  in at least the first and possibly the third of his wins.

I would also look more at yards per completion than attempt in the game manager thing and there McNabb had about 1.7 yards more per attempt.  The Eagles were always going to win or lose that game based on McNabb's play.  He made plenty of plays, but also made plenty of mistakes. 

1/19/2013 8:47 PM
But you didn't say "Brady was a game manager, while McNabb played more aggressively."  That's reasonable.  You said "McNabb way outperformed Brady, minus the 3 picks."  Which, for starters, is the football equivalent of "Well, other than THAT, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"  And even allowing for that absurdity, I don't think you can really defend 357 on 51 throws as "way" better than 236 on 33.  The Eagles made more big plays in the passing game, that much is true.  I don't think that's the sole criteria for evaluating a passing performance.
1/19/2013 10:39 PM
Posted by AlCheez on 1/19/2013 8:47:00 PM (view original):
But you didn't say "Brady was a game manager, while McNabb played more aggressively."  That's reasonable.  You said "McNabb way outperformed Brady, minus the 3 picks."  Which, for starters, is the football equivalent of "Well, other than THAT, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"  And even allowing for that absurdity, I don't think you can really defend 357 on 51 throws as "way" better than 236 on 33.  The Eagles made more big plays in the passing game, that much is true.  I don't think that's the sole criteria for evaluating a passing performance.
True, but Brady did lose a fumble, and one of McNabb's picks was essentially as time expired from his own 5 yard line.
1/19/2013 11:19 PM
And one of them was at the NE 3 on a play that started at the NE 19, after he had one in the end zone nullified by a penalty the play before, after he had taken a 16 yard sack when they were at the NE 8.  The 2nd one was the one that really sealed the game (though they scrambled for a TD on the next drive to make it look like they had a shot), on first down after they had just made a big play and were on the outer edge of field goal territory.  And let's not forget the way he brutalized the clock management at the end of the first half (some of which is obviously on Reid as well) and the fact that he didn't exactly get that final last gasp drive off on the right foot by giving the ball to Westbrook in the middle of the field for all of a yard.

Trust me, I watched every bit of that game, and I was a big time McNabb defender for most of his time in Philly.  He did not play well at all in that game save a few flashes.  He never looked comfortable and his play showed it.  The box score is actually somewhat generous to him, IMO.
1/20/2013 2:24 PM
And Brady fumbled on a play that started at the 4 as well. 
1/20/2013 3:47 PM (edited)
Seriously, you made a stupid statement, just back off of it and walk away.

You already mentioned the fumble and then tried to minimize the impact of one of McNabb's mistakes.  So, I pointed out how critical the other picks were, and threw in some other things that didn't show up in the box score for good measure.  The fumble was a botched exchange with Faulk, which goes the quarterback - not remembering the play, I can't remember whose fault it actually was, but if it was all on him, then Brady made one mistake.  McNabb played a game full of them, and it wasn't just the picks.

And it's even more silly because the McNabb comparison isn't even relevant to the point of the thread.  Yes, Brady was mostly a game manager in that Super Bowl. McNabb's performance relative to him doesn't change that.
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