All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/18/2013 4:00 PM
Simply fact of the matter is Brady was on a winning team and he wasn't causing them to lose.   He was above average but he somehow gained god-like status without doing much to get there. 

YES! This is the main point that people need to get.

(I can't believe MikeT23 is the one who made it, but it's a simple truth nontheless.)
In all seriousness, Viniteri misses a couple of FGs and I don't think the Brady Legend is intact.

Absolutely, there is no Brady legend without those field goal makes.  The only reason Brady was seen as great was because his team won.

I think it's sad that in the minds of many people, the difference between an above average but not great QB and an "elite" QB with HOF credentials hinges ENTIRELY on whether SOMEONE ELSE (Vinateri) comes through in the clutch in the Super Bowl on multiple occasions.
1/18/2013 4:09 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/18/2013 3:30:00 PM (view original):
I'm not arguing pointlss semantics, you're telling me that Brady has relied on safety valves, and I don't understand what you mean.

The point I was making is that Brady has always had receivers who were able to bail him out because he couldn't make the necessary throws for bigger plays. You say "Brown wasn't a burner" and I say he didn't need to be a burner. All he had to be was a guy who could get open consistently because Brady wouldn't make many throws unless the guy was wide open or **** close to it. The only exception was when he was throwing to Moss, and really, anyone could have thrown some of those balls to a wide open Moss or tossed a few up and let Moss go get them.

You want to know how Brady is over rated?

Even when Brady screws up and blows a throw to someone who IS wide open, team mates and sports pundits alike are hesitant to blame him for what is absolutely his fault. 

Case in point: When Brady screwed up the throw to Wes Welker in the Super Bowl that would probably have won him a fourth ring, Welker took the blame, and even while putting the blame where it belongs (on Brady) ESPN's Skip Bayless still finds a way to praise Brady despite the fact that he just caused his team to lose the Super Bowl.

The team drags him to three Super Bowl victories a decade ago and everyone wants to call him "elite". He screws up in two more recent Super Bowls and directly causes his team to lose the last one, and even when people point that out, they still find a way to praise him.

RIDICULOUS. The guy screwed up and cost his team a Super Bowl win. Yet no one focuses on that. It's almost like everyone just forgets about Brady's **** ups.
If it's anyone else who misses that throw, they're tearing him to pieces. But not the almighty Brady. Let us all drink the Brady kool-aid! Wheee!
Re: Brown - You'd stated that Brady was carried by an elite offense, that any QB would be able to step into and be successful.  Since then, we found that the dominant o-line the Pats had wasn't that good at all, and we found that Brady could get by because Troy Brown was on the team.  Troy Brown carried Tom Brady...Why couldn't he carry 3 time Pro-Bowler Drew Bledsoe?

And while it's ridiculous that I'm about to argue you on 1 play in 1 game (3/4 your argument above), I'll do it anyway.  Yes, Welker took the blame.  Brady even subtly said it was Welker's fault.  You'll probably hate me for saying this, but there are ex-QBs and analysts who claim that Brady sensed the safety pressure coming from the middle of the field and threw it to Welker's outside shoulder, which was the correct spot to put the ball.  I don't buy that completely, I think the blame on this ONE PLAY i about 50-50, but this is what many experts think.
1/18/2013 4:12 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/18/2013 4:00:00 PM (view original):
Simply fact of the matter is Brady was on a winning team and he wasn't causing them to lose.   He was above average but he somehow gained god-like status without doing much to get there. 

YES! This is the main point that people need to get.

(I can't believe MikeT23 is the one who made it, but it's a simple truth nontheless.)
In all seriousness, Viniteri misses a couple of FGs and I don't think the Brady Legend is intact.

Absolutely, there is no Brady legend without those field goal makes.  The only reason Brady was seen as great was because his team won.

I think it's sad that in the minds of many people, the difference between an above average but not great QB and an "elite" QB with HOF credentials hinges ENTIRELY on whether SOMEONE ELSE (Vinateri) comes through in the clutch in the Super Bowl on multiple occasions.
He put up "above average stats" because HE DIDN'T HAVE GREAT WEAPONS TO THROW THE BALL TO. 

Did Viniateri kick from 90 yards? No? So someone put him in position to kick the field goals?  And if Samuel knew how to time a jump Brady would have 4 rings.  It goes both ways.
1/18/2013 4:16 PM
You know, arguing that "Our RBs suck" isn't helping.

What do you do when you can't run?  Throw.   Isn't throwing a lot pretty beneficial when putting up yardage/TDs?
1/18/2013 4:17 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/18/2013 1:34:00 PM (view original):
Randomness - Listening to sports radio while working, and one of the hosts is arguing for a Ravens win.  That with Gronk out, the Ravens have better offensive weapons than the Pats, and with a better defense, will get a win this time. Even with Aaron Hernandez, Wes Welker, and Steven Ridley on the Pats.  
Ray Rice, Anquan Boldin, Torrey Smith, Jacoby Jones, Dennis Pitta, and Ed Hickson are probably better offensive weapons than the Pats have, especially with the huge edge they have with Rice (and Leach blocking for him). 
1/18/2013 4:21 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2013 4:16:00 PM (view original):
You know, arguing that "Our RBs suck" isn't helping.

What do you do when you can't run?  Throw.   Isn't throwing a lot pretty beneficial when putting up yardage/TDs?
Phillip Rivers put up fantastic numbers when he had LT on his team, and not so much when he left.  Could it be because teams put 8 guys in the box to stop him, and it's a little easier to find an open receiver when you do pass?

Is it possible that if you don't have a running game, it's harder to have longer drives and rack up stats?

The point is, and always have been, that Brady has done everything he has done pre-2007 (the Super Bowls wins and the "slightly above-average" stats) without the weapons that other great QBs have had the luxury of having.  And once he got weapons, he put up elite statistics.  
1/18/2013 4:22 PM
Not that I agree with the looney arguing Brady is overrated, but in the first Superbowl against the Rams this is Brady's line

16 of 27, 145 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT, 1 rush for 3 yards, 2 sacks for 11 yards

He had a monster game in 2003 and was pretty average in 2004 (McNabb way out performed him, except for the 3 picks).

1/18/2013 4:26 PM
Posted by moranis on 1/18/2013 4:22:00 PM (view original):
Not that I agree with the looney arguing Brady is overrated, but in the first Superbowl against the Rams this is Brady's line

16 of 27, 145 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT, 1 rush for 3 yards, 2 sacks for 11 yards

He had a monster game in 2003 and was pretty average in 2004 (McNabb way out performed him, except for the 3 picks).

Yes. If only Brady could have gone an additional 7 for 18 with 1 TD and 3 INT, he would have been as good as McNabb that year.
1/18/2013 4:30 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/18/2013 4:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2013 4:16:00 PM (view original):
You know, arguing that "Our RBs suck" isn't helping.

What do you do when you can't run?  Throw.   Isn't throwing a lot pretty beneficial when putting up yardage/TDs?
Phillip Rivers put up fantastic numbers when he had LT on his team, and not so much when he left.  Could it be because teams put 8 guys in the box to stop him, and it's a little easier to find an open receiver when you do pass?

Is it possible that if you don't have a running game, it's harder to have longer drives and rack up stats?

The point is, and always have been, that Brady has done everything he has done pre-2007 (the Super Bowls wins and the "slightly above-average" stats) without the weapons that other great QBs have had the luxury of having.  And once he got weapons, he put up elite statistics.  
We've discussed said weapons quite a few times. 

With the exception of the Wayne/Harrison/James/Clark era in Indy, Brady has had comparable weapons to all the big-time QB over the last 12 seasons.   I don't care if you think Colston/Thomas/Moore are great players, the NFL powers-that-be put them in the same class as the guys Brady had.   Borderline NFL players.   I'll trust their judgement over yours.
1/18/2013 4:36 PM
You can't argue that Colston and Thomas are boarderline NFL players based on draft position and ignore that Brady was a 6th round pick.

I'm sorry for somehow making you think less of Brady.  Even though it boggles my mind.  Did you guys see Deion Branch, Troy Brown and Kevin Faulk play? Did you ever say "wow, that guy's good."?
1/18/2013 4:41 PM
I'm almost 50.   This makes me look like a competitive bodybuilder.



That's why he was picked in the 5th round. 
1/18/2013 4:42 PM
Sorry, 6th round.  

And, FWIW, the scouts didn't think much of him either.    Nor did BB as Brady might still be holding a clipboard if Bledsoe isn't gutted.
1/18/2013 4:44 PM
I'm not arguing the scouts are idiots.  I'm telling you you shouldn't judge players, currently, in the middle of their careers, based on draft position.

And remember that Bledsoe was 5-13 in his last 18 games as a Pat.  Started 2001 0-2, threw more picks than TDs in 1999, and close to a 1-1 TD/INT ratio in 2000.  With pretty much the same weapons Brady had.
1/18/2013 4:45 PM

I'm telling you that Brown, Givens, Patten, Branch, etc, etc, might not be the turds you're making them out to be. 

1/18/2013 9:19 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2013 4:45:00 PM (view original):

I'm telling you that Brown, Givens, Patten, Branch, etc, etc, might not be the turds you're making them out to be. 

Brown isn't a turd. He was a quality WR. Just not a #1. Branch had amazing chemistry with Brady and was extremely clutch. He's slightly above average. Patten, Givens, Bethal Johnson, Chad Jackson, Roche Caldwell and to a lesser extent Gaffney were turds.
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