All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP
10/5/2012 10:36 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 10/5/2012 9:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/5/2012 4:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 10/5/2012 4:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/5/2012 3:24:00 PM (view original):
That has nothing to do with "successful". 

What is the objective of MLB teams?   I sort of see it like this:   Win WS - Make WS - make playoffs - win regular season games - don't die in plane crash
The only thing you can control is what you do in your own games.

If you win 103 games, that's generally regarded as a damn good season.

Do you think the 1993 San Francisco Giants regarded their '93 season as an unmitigated failure?  How much control did they have over Atlanta going 97-52 in the 149 games the Braves played against the rest of the NL?
Did they make the playoffs?  Do you think they called the '93 "Hugely successful"?
Was it a complete failure?  Do you think that they all went "GODDAMMIT, WE SUCK!!!" at the end of the season?

If you gave every team next season the option of (a) a guaranteed 103 wins with no other guarantees (such as playoffs), or (b) take your chances with whatever you can do, which option do you most teams would take?
Teams don't get options.  They make the playoffs or they don't.   Amirite?
10/5/2012 10:56 PM
I suppose if you judge success by things that are outside of your control, sure.

Teams have some influence over the 162 games they play.  They don't have any influence over what happens in games that they don't participate in.
10/5/2012 11:03 PM
I judge success by achieving goals.   If your goal is to win a lot of games and play some golf when other teams play on, I guess that's success.
10/6/2012 12:28 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 10/5/2012 10:56:00 PM (view original):
I suppose if you judge success by things that are outside of your control, sure.

Teams have some influence over the 162 games they play.  They don't have any influence over what happens in games that they don't participate in.
This happens all the time.  My goal might be to accomplish X in my life.  But my father left my family right after i was born, my mother works 3 jobs, I live in a ****** area, I can't pay for college, etc.  It's more difficult to achieve my goal than it is for the guy who's born into a family of multi-billionaires.  These are forces outside my control.  It's not my fault I can't achieve my goal as easier as the billionaire.  Yet the billionaire will, and is more successful.
10/6/2012 1:16 AM
That's not even an appropriate example. If the Angels won 90 games and got edged out by Texas, you MIGHT have an argument. They got walloped by the A's too. The Royals could easily have made a jump this year with all their young talent (and likely will next year) - would that give more cred to the Tigers? The bottom line is the Angels didn't beat the teams they needed to beat. The Tigers did. The White Sox were a formidable team this year before fading down the stretch. The Tigers were 14-4 against them this season. They beat the hell out of the team that mattered most and it got them to the playoffs.

When people or teams overcome odds to reach a goal, we're all happy - it's a good story. But no one feels sorry for the ones who fail to make their goal because they had a bit rougher path. You can't make excuses after the fact.

10/6/2012 3:54 AM
With the Triple Crown, the MVP is a fait accompli.  Everybody can point to that achievement and its rarity to justify their vote - even though every statistical evaluation and virtually every baseball expert agrees Trout was the best player this year.  The voters can also 'excuse' their vote by rationalizing that Trout will still get ROY.
10/6/2012 10:38 AM
Posted by Jtpsops on 10/6/2012 1:16:00 AM (view original):
That's not even an appropriate example. If the Angels won 90 games and got edged out by Texas, you MIGHT have an argument. They got walloped by the A's too. The Royals could easily have made a jump this year with all their young talent (and likely will next year) - would that give more cred to the Tigers? The bottom line is the Angels didn't beat the teams they needed to beat. The Tigers did. The White Sox were a formidable team this year before fading down the stretch. The Tigers were 14-4 against them this season. They beat the hell out of the team that mattered most and it got them to the playoffs.

When people or teams overcome odds to reach a goal, we're all happy - it's a good story. But no one feels sorry for the ones who fail to make their goal because they had a bit rougher path. You can't make excuses after the fact.

Yes. The Angels had a tougher road to make the playoffs, and they didn't make it. It is what it is. The Tigers, with an easier road, made the playoffs. They accomplished their regular season goal. Without Cabrera, they don't reach that goal.
10/6/2012 6:12 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/5/2012 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 5:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 5:34:00 PM (view original):
BL - can these numbers change from year to year? 


Catcher: +12.5 runs (all are per 162 defensive games)
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs
If if these were the numbers in 1990, then Dykstra has quite an advantage over Murray before stats were even considered.
BTW, does anyone know how these arbitrary numbers were chosen?

They're basically determined by looking at average offensive contribution by position but include some other factors like differences in defensive performance at each position for players that have played multiple positions.  Since offense is sacrificed for defense at some positions, the adjustments are so that players at different positions can be comparable.  These are just starting points before actual performance is factored in.  The more negative the adjustments, the easier that position is to play and the easier it is to be average or above average defensively.  You can put a DH like Adam Dunn at CF and he'll get the positive adjustment but as soon as he starts playing and performing poorly defensively, he'll go negative (in the defensive ratings) quickly because he'll be so far behind the other CFs.  These values are adjusted based on playing time so that a player that plays a portion of the season at the position gets half the adjustment. 

11/1/2012 10:14 AM
Trout = no gold glove.

Value diminished?
11/1/2012 11:15 AM
I ignore gold glove awards, always.  If he won a gold glove I wouldn't say his value is higher.
11/1/2012 11:18 AM
Well, supposedly, he was GG CF.  That was part of his value.    Are GG the be all to end all in fielding?  No, not at all.  But, if that's part of your argument, it matters.
11/1/2012 11:21 AM
He was GG CF quality, yes.  But since people who vote for GG awards are often retarded, I ignore who actually wins the award.  For example, Jones is clearly an inferior CF to Trout.  I'm not going to suddenly realize that Jones is elite in the field, just because a select group of people thought he was.
11/1/2012 11:57 AM
jtpops seems to think that Trout was moved to LF late in games.   Does his team even think he's GG quality?
11/1/2012 12:11 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/1/2012 11:22:00 AM (view original):
He was GG CF quality, yes.  But since people who vote for GG awards are often retarded, I ignore who actually wins the award.  For example, Jones is clearly an inferior CF to Trout.  I'm not going to suddenly realize that Jones is elite in the field, just because a select group of people thought he was.
This. The fact that Jeter won several Gold Gloves makes the award completely irrelevant.
11/1/2012 1:01 PM
My favorite is Raffy Palmeiro with his GG "earned" for his 28 games played at 1B.  It's hard to beat the incumbent in the eyes of the voters, I guess.
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