All Forums > SimLeague Basketball > Theme Leagues > ODL-40 Team Compositions
8/19/2012 4:53 AM (edited)
Rosters and Commentary

   1) banditone - Moses Malone, Mike Mitchell, Stephen Curry, Sleepy Floyd, John Beasley, Dale Ellis, Detlef Schrempf

  
2) jethroeg - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Connie Hawkins, Reggie Miller, Kevin Porter, Bob Dandridge,
 
 
  
3) ljemd - Dennis Rodman, Shawn KempMitch Richmond, Tree Rollins, Joakim Noah, Derek Harper, Steven Blake
 
  
4) coachcroft - LeBron James, Horace Grant, Manu Ginobili, Rajon Rondo, Alonzo Mourning, Shane Battier, Paul Silas
 
  
5) bluenote75 - W. Chamberlain, Ryan AndersonAndrew Bynum, Andre Iguodala, Kenneth Faried, Andris Biedrins, K. Hinrich
 
  
6) tricky24 - Michael Jordan, Tom BoerwinkleGary Payton, Clifford Ray, Samuel Dalembert, Kyle Korver, Glen Rice
 
  
7) natenoy - Dwight Howard, Paul PierceKobe Bryant, Darrell Walker, Damon Jones, Dennis Scott, Kevin Willis
 
  
8) ncmusician_7 - David Robinson, Donyell Marshall, Clyde Drexler, DeAndre Jordan, Jason Terry, Charlie Ward, Jason Maxiell
 
  
9) scudmissle - Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki, Bill Walton, Nick Anderson, Maurice Cheeks, Happy Hairston, Danny Ainge

 10) ginandjuice - Shaquille O'Neal, Marcus Camby, Marques Johnson, Dana Barros, JR Smith, Terry Dehere, David Lee

 11) malone9975 - Magic Johnson, Buck Williams, Wes Unseld, Grant Hill, Willis Reed, Brooks Thompson, Joel Przybilla 

 12) jakotay - Kevin Garnett, Swen NaterSteve Nash, Raja Bell, Vince Carter, Anthony Carter, Cadillac Anderson

 13) robocoach - Chris Paul, Mel Daniels, Troy Murphy, Julius Erving, Mike Miller, Alvin Robertson, Bo Outlaw

 14) dh555 - Karl Malone, Oscar Robertson, Robert Parish, Cedric Maxwell, Brandon Rush, Larry Smith,

 15) ashamael - Kevin Durant, Tyson Chandler, Carlos Boozer, Terry Porter, Bobby Jones, Roddy Beaubois, Chris Gatling

 
16) brick_man - Larry Bird, Anfernee Hardaway, Emeka Okafor, Erick Dampier, Larry Nance, Leandro Barbosa, Reggie Evans

 17) 98average - J. Stockton, Kevin McHale, Patrick Ewing, Hersey Hawkins, D. FortsonM. LandsbergerB. Jackson

 
18) tarheel1991 - Ben Wallace, Jerry Lucas, Mookie Blaylock, Tracy McGrady, Kyrie Irving, James Worthy, Omer Asik,

 19) theyard2 - Artis Gilmore, Deron Williams, Elton Brand, Kris Humphries, Bruce Bowen, Nicolas Batum, Michael Smith

 20) eleibowitz - Jason Kidd, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Serge Ibaka, Michael Redd, Fred Hoiberg, Chris Dudley

 21) mikee1 - Dwayne Wade, Dikembe Mutombo, Brent Barry, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Dale Davis, Leon Wood,

 22) xxevilivexx - Ray Allen, Chauncey BillupsJames Harden, Peja StojakovicSteve Novak, Charles Oakley, Erving Johnson  

 23) sappy - Bill Russell, Kevin Love, Kevin Johnson, Gerald WallaceDanny Green, Manute Bol, Ty Lawson

 24) ncih  - Scottie Pippen, Shawn Marion, Walt Frazier, Amare Stoudemire, Harry Gallatin, Eric Maynor, Michael Ruffin,


8/6/2012 1:35 AM (edited)
isn't lebron the consensus the no. 1 odl selection?  def, asts, rebs, 3's, pts, and that 2011-12 season - fg%... all for under 10k. how does he fall to number 4?

i like moses better than wilt in the odl

but jordan is better than the worm in the odl, reverse for the 52mil

jabbar better than wilt? that choice falls into the hands of the "better" manager i think.

happy with barkley at no. 9

a little scary to see DROB in the hands of nc
8/6/2012 5:13 PM (edited)
I've come up with a new way of rating players that I will not be kind enough to share with you... but it's intuitively obvious so there should be no need.  So keep in mind that my priorities with building a team might be different than yours when you're reading my comments.

The top 10 is almost perfect... order's off and there's someone that I'm coming to like more and more that I think might actually be top 5 worthy despite a big weakness... but it's mostly right.

I think 66-67 Wilt is the best player in the sim... but Kareem is easier to build around in a draft league - tier 2 usage 3500 minute player with 57% efg?  Yes, please.  But back to Wilt... as I said, it's a little more difficult to build around a tier 4 usage player, but it can be done - it just never is done right.  No other Wilt is worth taking in this league in the top 5, though a few of them are worth using if you got him around 10.

Moses is somewhat overrated imo... He gives you lots of minutes, boards and a reasonably solid efg%... but only being 3rd tier usage is a sticking point.  Still, what he gives you is immensely valuable and is still top 10 worthy.

Worm is still most valuable draft pick for what he opens up... but it's tough to build around a tier 6 player when you draft one this early.  People always do it wrong, too.  People always try and pair him with low offensive board front court guys and pay for it, instead of hammering in the advantage he gives you.  Capitalize on your strengths.

Jordan is one of the most versatile draft picks as he has several different salary levels you can use that are equally good for the money, giving you flexibility later.  That makes him extremely valuable.  His best season though is the 89-90 one... 55% efg, tier 1, sub 10% tov%, 100+ threes once you sim.  But he's not better than worm here... easier to build around though, which is a big part of the argument so maybe he is.

The King is 3rd best overall player in the sim but probably the easiest to build around (which ups the value).  Tier 1 or 2 PG with high efg%, rebounds, assists... gives you threes... low fouls... high defense... gets to the line a ton... can defend 4 positions... That translates to a #1 for me, though I wouldn't argue Worm or Wilt going ahead of him.

I used to rate Howard ahead of Kareem, but Dwight's best sim season is his 10-11 season... which is a little short on minutes compared to Kareem's best.  And minutes are something I like my first pick to have.  He's definitely in that 5-7 range.  Best rebounder of any tier 2 usage player.  Has a really nice tier 3 season, too.  Most recent season also nice.  Lots of nice seasons, actually.  Still - you don't see a 3300+ minute version of him with those stats... so he falls into a cluster of guys I find to be rated about equal.

Admiral went about where he should have.  I have Shaq rated higher because of what he gives me on the offensive end, but Admiral definitely has some advantages (better boards, better ft%, better defense).  Barkley's right there with them, but the difficulty in building around a tier 3 offensive player (his tier 2 season is NOT worth using in a draft league though it's extremely good in others) hamstrings his value a bit.  Few people do it right.  Scud knows how to use him, though, so lord help us all.

It's hard to fault anybody for taking Magic, but sadly, I think it's slightly too high.  His best season is stellar, but at this point my priorities are focused in a different area.  He's still a fine 15-20 pick.

Too early for KG despite the board advantages he gives you at the 3 (too low efg%).  I like his 07-08 season the best, honestly, and that's not worth a 1st round pick.

cp3 has 3 quality seasons and is in that 15-20 pick range imo, so 13 isn't too high of a reach.  If he ever turns in a 55%+ efg season with the other numbers he typically puts up, though, wow.


This is my "big board" for the ODL as it currently stands.

1.  Lebron
2.  Wilt
3.  Worm
4.  MJ
5.  Kareem
6.  (not drafted yet) - Mailman
7.  Howard
8.  Moses
9.  Shaq
10.  Barkley
11.  Admiral
12 - 15 haven't been drafted yet.
8/6/2012 8:11 AM
good post, ash.

though i do not agree with the ordering of the top 12, i agree with you on who belongs there. i know the two undrafted players you are referring to, though one of them at no. 6 is a stretch to me. and the other player rated 12th, is a bit too low, unless of course i have these 2 guys reversed. haha. one of them is on my 52 mil league team, right? is that the guy you have rated as 12th?

yes, lebron is no. 1...  and i hate those centers who take  500-600 fta's and miss more than half of them. wilt, howard and shaq. moses is too low. there are a couple of nice seasons which he has a 26%+ usage factor. i would take Drob over shaq and howard any day. this is evident because of the mvp votes robinson garners in these leagues. always more than shaq and howard. haha. weak argument, but true, nonetheless.

if i had to choose between the worm and jordan in an odl, jordan gets my vote, hands down. i can find other guys who bring what rodman does, for less money. but in the 52, rodman is worth more than jordan, slightly, because of his sweet 10-11% usage, which is needed more in a high priced league. rodman is too expensive in an odl for a one-dimensional player, and if you use a cheaper version, then what's the point of drafting him in the top 5?

one of the players not yet drafted i think is better value in an odl than shaq and howard. he's probably just a hair behind them in a 52 mil league because of his tier 3 usage. anyway, liked your post a lot!!
8/6/2012 8:37 AM
On the other hand........


Rodman gets my vote as the number 1 pick every time for 3 reasons:


1.) his $ value to number ratio is as good as anybody in the sim. (btw, the number 2 guy usually goes in the 3rd round.)

2.) his low usage us a a great asset in making what are really borderline all-star teams.  I would much rather draft a 10% usage guy in round one than a 27% (or higher) guy. The Sim just isnt going to give you the other guy's usage in the long run, so you are overpaying for that guy by definition.

3.) his skill set is actually unigue to NBA history. Drop off from Jordan or Lebron to the next guard, no big loss. Drop off Rodman to the next 3, well.........
8/6/2012 9:47 AM
pretty sure ash was referring to the mailman at #6...who i just took

ive slept on him in draft leagues for awhile now....i guess the boards and the fact hes more mid than paint scared me off but how many guys can put up 30/10/6 on 55+ shooting?.....im big on loading up on assists and malone is wilt-like with his passing....by taking him ive got my #1 scorer, my defensive big who can guard both spots(key since i will most likely take a great boards/bad d guy next to him), and a big advantage on assists already


8/6/2012 4:24 PM
dh - yes, I'm referring to Mailman... but I use a different season than everyone else seems to like.

89-90 Karl Malone is the about 3rd or 4th best offensive player in the sim.  A 56.7% efg tier-1 usage guy that gets to the line a ton and makes those free throws?  You can't find that anywhere else.  He also has a decent amount of paint scoring in that season.  High turnovers are a price I am willing to pay... and was glad to do so: The man averaged 40ppg with 60% from the field for me in the playoffs last season.

That's worth more than almost any amount of rebounding advantage Moses, Robinson or anybody else in the list gives IMO.  And he'll give you almost 3200 minutes of that godliness.  6th might be too low.



8/6/2012 5:10 PM
scud:
So keep in mind that my priorities with building a team might be different than yours when you're reading my comments.
Thus my top 12 looks different and you disagree on the order.  Now that dh took the Mailman, let me break down why my order looks like it does:

In the sim, offense is king.  We all know this.  So who is more valuable?  A guy that shoots 60% from the field but is a tier 3 usage player or a guy that shoots 55% from the field but is a tier 1 usage player?

That's a trick question... they're actually equal.  As is a tier 2 usage guy that shoots 57.5% from the field.

Many other factors come into play (how they help you in the possession battle, the other ways they effect the shooting struggle other their own fg%, the minutes they play, their tendency to commit fouls, ability to get to the line, ability to make free throws, etc), but my #1 concern when evaluating players is how they impact my team when they shoot the ball and how often they shoot that ball.

Thus, a tier 3 usage, 55% efg guy really has no comparison to a tier 2, 59% efg guy.  Howard out rebounds Shaq, but Shaq is the most efficient high efg% guys in the game when it comes to turning the ball over.  Admiral makes a few more free throws than those guys.  Moses out rebounds them all, but again, we're talking about a tier 3 usage, 54.7% efg guy.


I haven't come up with the name of the statistic yet, but I've come up with a rating system based on this concept.  Basically you determine a coefficient based on usage tier:

(usage points)/14.5 *imo the ideal amount of usage points... this number can change but it really doesn't change the results too much = coefficient

Thus a tier 1 is about .55, a tier 2 .41, tier 3 .27, tier 4 .13, tier 5 .068, tier 6 .034

Take that coefficient and multiply it times this number:  efg% - 50

To make this number stand out a bit more, I multiply it by 10 (actually I just multiply the coefficient by 10 but it works out the same).

This weights how much a player's shooting helps (or hurts) you.  It takes a bit of the gray area out of the equation, allowing you to look at some hard number that balances two very important aspects (usage & efg) and then compare players using other key stats.


So how does a guy like Rodman play into things?  He's an asterisk in this whole discussion since I opened with the statement that offense is king.  Well, it's simple... he gives me almost 3400 minutes of something nobody else can offer.  Nobody.  He's not too expensive for this league, either.  But ranking him becomes more complicated.  I'd take him #3 based on my confidence that I can surround him with the right players later.  I don't rank him #3 based on what other players might or might not be able to do.  He's probably not a top 3 because people have extreme difficulty when drafting a tier 6 usage guy that high.  But he's a top 3 in my hands.  At least, that's my theory... since I've never drafted him in this league, it's hard to put some hard data behind it.  But I have used Chuck, Howard, Kareem & Mailman and have 6 bits of hard data behind how good they were.
8/6/2012 5:40 PM
Sorry, wasn't meant to be about draft decisions.
8/6/2012 6:30 PM
Posted by ashamael on 8/6/2012 4:24:00 PM (view original):
dh - yes, I'm referring to Mailman... but I use a different season than everyone else seems to like.

89-90 Karl Malone is the about 3rd or 4th best offensive player in the sim.  A 56.7% efg tier-1 usage guy that gets to the line a ton and makes those free throws?  You can't find that anywhere else.  He also has a decent amount of paint scoring in that season.  High turnovers are a price I am willing to pay... and was glad to do so: The man averaged 40ppg with 60% from the field for me in the playoffs last season.

That's worth more than almost any amount of rebounding advantage Moses, Robinson or anybody else in the list gives IMO.  And he'll give you almost 3200 minutes of that godliness.  6th might be too low.



itd be tough for me to pass on his 96-97 season and all those dimes but maybe ill try it out....he is a much better scorer that year...what did he average for you during the season? 35?
8/6/2012 6:59 PM
89-90 Malone is actually the highest efg full season guy with 32.5 usage or higher.

Chris Paul seems to keep jumping up the draft board. 

98 takes Stockton 17th. Awesome.
8/6/2012 8:46 PM (edited)
89-90 Malone is actually the highest efg full season guy with 32.5 usage or higher.

Yup!  That's why I said what I said :)  Only a couple of partial Shaq seasons (edit:  actually many of Shaq's seasons), Dwight's 10-11 season, a season of an ODL staple I can't name yet, and one partial season of a guy never drafted are really ahead in my efficiency stat I am working on.
itd be tough for me to pass on his 96-97 season and all those dimes but maybe ill try it out....he is a much better scorer that year...what did he average for you during the season? 35?

Yup.  I don't have the exact stats handy because I apparently forgot to input all my data into a spreadsheet like I normally do (WTF?! I really wanted that one, too, because I had so many guys 55%+ efg... my entire core rotation, actually), but yeah, he averaged 35+ at 59% for the season.  You basically lose 20 defense and those dimes to gain a WAY higher ft/poss ratio, better efg% and about 125 more minutes (more tos & pfs, too).  I've used both versions... in this league... but I always do better with the 89-90 version.
8/6/2012 8:36 PM
I agree that Malone is easily a top 10 value for his offensive punch. I made a living drafting him in the 16-24 range in both the ODL and this league, but I think the days of getting him in that range are over. Too bad. But I prefer 96-97 for the lower negatives. Either that or 89-90 deserves a top ten pick, regardless, though.

I used to say that I thought I could take Rodman #1, not pick again until the draft is over, and still make the playoffs. Because he gives you the most flexibility of anyone (besides arguably Lebron) given his huge rebounding at SF, low usage, low turnovers, high defense. That means you can fill in around him better than almost anyone.

I'm not sure I would say that anymore, mainly because I think the quality of drafting has gotten much better over the past several seasons. But of course the draft pool has increased, too, so maybe it would be doable. I still might have to try that sometime (I've tried proposing my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th  round picks for #1 overall, 6ths, and 5th, but had that rejected) but it would be tough.
8/6/2012 9:19 PM
A-train finally went.  Good value at that pick.  He was my #12 on my big board.  I hadn't got a chance to use 11-12 Durant yet, though, so I went that direction.
8/6/2012 9:22 PM
Man... Shaq is actually way better than I thought (and I have always had him high).  He's the prototypical guy to build your offense around (high usage, high efg%, low tov%).  If only he had a season with 3300+ minutes base.  His 93-94, 94-95 and 99-00 seasons are still really insane though.
of 13
All Forums > SimLeague Basketball > Theme Leagues > ODL-40 Team Compositions

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.