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8/9/2012 12:26 AM
Posted by badja on 8/8/2012 9:29:00 PM (view original):
To recap:  LA was better than Utah.  Magic was better than Stockton.  I don't get the arguement.

Exchange Magic for Stockton.  Do the Jazz win a title?  I don't think so.  Could be wrong, but I don't think so.







i bet stockton would win 2-3 if he was on the lakers but i think any great PG could win a couple with that stacked lakers roster. also like badja i dont understand the magic vs stockton argument.
PG rankings
1 Magic
2 Thomas
3 Oscar- although i dont like 60's players  so 3a is
3a stockton
4 Payton
5 kidd
6 Nash
7 Fraizer
8 Paul
9 probably KJ
8/9/2012 2:32 PM (edited)
Posted by badja on 8/8/2012 9:29:00 PM (view original):
To recap:  LA was better than Utah.  Magic was better than Stockton.  I don't get the arguement.

Exchange Magic for Stockton.  Do the Jazz win a title?  I don't think so.  Could be wrong, but I don't think so.







wow  it appears you are only semi literate

to recap

forget Magic, you are the one fixating on Magic:
 
you said: why no love for stockton?

I said Frazier, Payton, Zeke, Big O, West, Paul etc were all better than Stockton  - we're not talking top 5 at the position here

and the second part of your question is irrelevant but yeah in the late 80s when Magic was a regular MVP candidate and the Jazz were at their height possibly he could have gotten the Jazz over the hump and no, DJ shuts Stockton down easily, there's no baby jump hook, no Kareem reinvigorated by Magic's youthfulness no all 5 positions 42 p 15 r 7a rookie game 6  etc so no titles - it's like the second act of It's a Wonderful Life, all bleak
8/9/2012 3:18 PM
I said Frazier, Payton, Zeke, Big O, West, Paul etc were all better than Stockton  - we're not talking top 5 at the position here


It depends on the team.  Stockton as PG could be a better fit on a team with plenty of great scoring options because he could pass better than anyone in league history.  If he needs to shoot, he does that as well as or better than any of those listed as well.  Steals?  Again he tops the list.

Sometimes a pure PG is better than a PG/SG hybrid.   I don't know that Paul is better than Stockton, but as all around players then yeah those other guys are better.
8/11/2012 12:38 AM
I think you're being a little harsh on Stockton.  I hated the guy, but he belongs in the conversation.  Everybody had weaknesses including most of the guys you say are better than Stockton.  Regardless... here's what I'm running:

pg - Magic - this really should be a no brainer.  Every matchup problem begins right here.  He excels in a fast paced game, and with the defense this squad is going to have, it'll be a fast paced game.  See: Most of the US Olympic teams

sg - Jordan - Duh.

sf - Bird - Does everything well and gives the SL somebody that can shoot from anywhere.

pf - Lebron - yeah, he's a SF but he plays PF often enough.  He can defend 1-4, which is key since Magic would have trouble with smaller, faster point guards (but is bulky enough to guard forwards).  In the event that a team plays a twin-tower like setup, I go to my bench.

c - Wilt - the sixers & lakers version, not the warriors version... you know the only guy to ever record a 20/20/20?  That's the guy I'm looking for.  Honestly you can go many ways at C, but later in his career Wilt understood that it actually was a team game, and with teammates like this, I have no doubt he could get along.  People sleep on him because of various reasons that they were told by somebody else or read in a book.  The truth is he was the most freakishly athletic player that side of Jordan.  Still, there are 4 centers I want to put here and can come up with valid arguments for any of them.


Bench:

pg - Glove.  While I never cared for his offensive game, I don't think I can think of many point guards I could even put in a conversation with him defensively.  With the players on this squad, he'll have open shots... which he'll make.  And if he starts playing the "I'm gonna be a ball hog" there are plenty of team players on this squad that would get all over his ***.  If he refused to cooperate... **** it... Magic & Lebron will play the point and he'll sit on the bench.  Or we'll just go straight triangle.

sg - Ginobili.  The longer I have watched this guy play, the more I'm convinced that he would be the best possible backup at SG to Jordan.  I'm not saying he's the 2nd best SG of all time (far from it), but think about what he brings off the bench (a role he's relished in the NBA for how long?).  He has virtually no holes in his game and the only thing that's kept him from attaining further individual success is injury problems and a selflessness that will be forgotten by generations ahead.  So what does he bring this team?  Great range... great playmaking ability.  He gives 100% effort 100% of the time on both ends.  He fits on this squad better than any other SG I could think of to put on the bench behind MJ.

sf - Pippen.  Ultimate complimentary player and one of (if not the best) defenders to ever play the game.  His impact not only on the guy he guarded but his help defense... incomparable by anybody that's played the last 30+ years (except... maybe... for Lebron.  He's getting there).  Selfless player that gives you so much on both ends.

pf - Duncan.  This pains me to do this because I've always said that he's a center and just gets called a PF because that's what initials are put before his name in the SL.  But that's what history will call him, so that's what he is.  He proved to be fantastic in a twin-tower setting, so there's that.  Selfless guy that just does what it takes to win.  He'll come in to guard the guys that Magic/Bird/Lebron can't at PF.

c - Kareem.  If I need easy points, I want this guy in the game.  He meshes well with the defense/fast break philosophy as well... you know, that whole showtime Laker thing?  All-time great defender, too, and for some reason that part of his game gets overlooked.

c - Hakeem.  I can't make this team and leave him off even though we've already got elite post scorers & defenders at the position.  He's probably the best defender of the three and gives you something different from the post than the other 2 offensively.  He's someone you can bring in and is athletic enough to play the 4 (as is Wilt, tbh) as well. 

sf - Durant.  Too soon?  Yeah.  But I'm building a team here, not listing the 12 greatest of all-time.  What does Durant do here?  Mostly sit on the bench... but if I need perimeter shooting in a hurry... yeah.  He comes in if I want to run a post-iso offense (surround Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem or Duncan with: manu-jordan-durant-bird).  This would be the same role I'd consider adding a Ray Allen or Reggie Miller to the team for.



I left Russel & Rodman off because:  There's nobody on this squad you can ignore or play off of.  Everyone is a threat to score.


The only thing I'm really dissatisfied with is Glove... I always thought he was a selfish sob whose offensive game was no where near what he thought it was.  It's a shame that he'll be considered better than some others by historians just because he got a charity ring.  But defensively, I can think of nobody that was better at his position... and defense creates easy offense.

Actually, I'm not satisfied that Barkley isn't on the team... my all-time favorite player was a beast offensively and nobody (except worm) worked harder on the boards... but defense... yeah... =/
8/11/2012 1:15 AM
My squad has to be:

PG - Magic (the greatest point to walk the earth)
SG - Jordan (GOAT)
SF - Bird (rebounding, passing, shooting, and moved without the ball probably better than anyone not named Reggie Miller)
PF - Dream (sure he is out of position, but his pure athletic prowess and being the greatest defender in history while being a monster on the boards and offensively if needed make him my PF...and yes this is a homer pick...but in a way all of these are since they are most likely my four favorite guys)
C - Kareem (Sky Hook....unstoppable)

Bench
PG - Mo Cheeks
SG - Pippen, Reggie Miller
SF - Lebron
PF - Duncan, McHale
C - Wilt

I the only thing here I feel that may need defending is Cheeks, but passing, defense, and efficient scoring as needed makes him a nice addition.  Reggie is my only stiff defensively.

Apologies to Chuck, Russell, Hondo, Durant, Isiah, Moses, Karl, Rodman, and Shaq
8/11/2012 1:47 AM
Nothing like waiting for 1:50am for our results to post huh?

The actual 1992 Dream Team is pretty close to most of this, put in LBJ for Laettner and make those 12 exclusive, and I don't think there is ANY combonation of players that that would beat them. That's a good challenge, swap LBJ for Laettner, those 12 cannot be selected, now TRY to find me 12 other players that have EVER played that could beat them, I don't think its possible.
8/11/2012 10:50 AM
Posted by natenoy on 8/11/2012 1:47:00 AM (view original):
Nothing like waiting for 1:50am for our results to post huh?

The actual 1992 Dream Team is pretty close to most of this, put in LBJ for Laettner and make those 12 exclusive, and I don't think there is ANY combonation of players that that would beat them. That's a good challenge, swap LBJ for Laettner, those 12 cannot be selected, now TRY to find me 12 other players that have EVER played that could beat them, I don't think its possible.
PG - Oscar
SG - Kobe
SF - Durant
PF - Dream
C - Kareem

Bench
PG - Mo Cheeks
SG - Sidney Moncrief, Jerry West
SF - Dr. J
PF - Tim Duncan, Kevin McHale
C - Wilt
8/13/2012 5:04 AM
I think it would be really interesting to have Hakeem at the 4, but I think half of your roster would want to punch Kobe in the mouth by the end of the 2nd practice.  ;)
8/24/2012 5:07 PM
Wilt
Russell
Dr J
MJ
Magic

Kareem
Worm, Dream
Bird, Bron
Kobe
Oscar

8/26/2012 7:00 PM
Posted by felonius on 8/8/2012 12:56:00 PM (view original):
After Bird made four straight baskets with Dennis Rodman guarding him, he ran over to Chuck Daly and asked "who's guarding me, Chuck? Is anyone guarding me? You better get someone on me or I'm gonna go for 60." Then he'd continue the banter the next time he got the ball with Rodman inches away.

"I started talking a little trash to him," Horace Grant recalled, when the Celtics were the defending champions. "I'm saying, 'You're not going to score. You're not getting this basket. I remember him then telling me exactly what he was going to do to me. He says he's going to fake me left and then he's going to shoot a right-hand hook over me. And then he goes and does it and scores."

On a West Coast trip in 1986, Bird told the entire Dallas Mavericks bench that after the time out, Ainge would inbounds the pass to DJ, who would hit Bird in the corner where Bird would step back and take a three. "So you got that?" Bird queried the bench. "I'm gonna stand right here. I'm not going to move. They'll pass me the ball, and the next sound you hear will be the ball hitting the bottom of the net." And that's exactly what happened. Bird winked at the Mavericks before heading back down to the other end of the court.

When the Indiana Pacers put rookie George McCloud on Bird in the closing minutes of a game, Bird yelled over to the Pacers bench, "Hey, I know you guys are desperate, but can't you find someone who at least has a prayer?"

After Craig Hodges won the NBA All-Star Game Three-Point contest in Bird's absence, Hodges was asked if the victory was tainted because Bird hadn't participated. "He knows where he can find me," was Hodges retort. Told of Hodges' challenge, Bird replied, "Yeah, at the end of the Bulls bench."

During the three-point shooting contest on All-Star Weekend 1986, Bird entered the locker room, looked around for a while without saying a word, when he finally spoke he said, "I want all of you to know I am winning this thing. I'm just looking around to see who's gonna finish up second." He won the shooting contest.

During one game on Christmas Day against the Indiana Pacers, before the game Bird told Chuck Person that he had a Christmas present waiting for him. During the game, when Person was on the bench, Bird shot a three-pointer on the baseline right in front of Person. Immediately after releasing the ball, Bird said to Person, "Merry ****in' Christmas!", and then the shot went in. This was no doubt inspired by Person (nicknamed the "Rifleman") stating prior to the game that "The Rifleman is Coming, and He's Going Bird Hunting."

Reggie Miller recalled his encounter with Larry Bird's legendary trash talking ability in his book "I Love Being The Enemy". Reggie tried to disrupt Larry's concentration when he was shooting free throws late in a game. Larry glared at him, made the first free throw and said, "Rook, I am the best ****ing shooter in the league. In the league, understand? And you're up here trying to ****ing tell me something?" Then Larry buried the second free throw.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so you got that? that's what cold blooded clutch looks like, Lebron is great in a lot of different ways but sure as hell aint got that


incredible.

5/28/2013 1:25 PM
Saw this as an old thread but its something I've often debated/thought about.

I'd go with:

PG : The Glove
SG : MJ
SF : LeBron
PF : Hakeem
C : Russell

6th : Bird
7th : Magic
8th : Shaq
9th : Pippen
10th : Duncan
11th : Penny Hardaway (before his knees/legs went guy was closest thing I ever saw to MJ)
12th : Ray Allen

Would be impossible to score against Glove-MJ-Lebron on the perimeter. Would be confident with those 3 guarding any of the teams above.... then factor in that they would be protected by dream/russell in the paint. Rebounds would almost impossible for another team to come by especially with MJ/Payton rebounding from the back court.

Think about the "small ball" possibilities with either Bird/Magic/Pippen coming in to play the 3/4 and sliding Russell or Dream to the bench.

A second unit of Magic-Penny-Bird- Pippen/Duncan-Shaq would be scary as well.


5/28/2013 4:35 PM
Would be impossible to score against Glove-MJ-Lebron on the perimeter.

That's the misconception that gets people in trouble.  Ever heard the saying "Good defense, better offense?"  The truly elite offensive players just really couldn't be stopped.  The dream team story about Jordan & Pippen shutting down Kukoc is amazing, yes, but Kukoc isn't a Kobe or a Magic...

In the 93 finals the bulls had to double team Barkley with Pippen & Horace Grant (one of which is one of the greatest all-time defenders and the other was more than solid).  Barkley made Kemp (another great defender) look like a chump.  Barkley made Mailman (also a good defender) look like a chump in those dream team practices.  Barkley destroyed other hall of fame defenders because his offensive game was simply too good.  Remember what Olajuwon did to the Admiral in that playoff series after they gave Robinson the MVP?  The admiral was far from a bad defender... Remember what he did to Shaq?  Remember what Shaq did to him?

That's not to say that great defense isn't important... but statements like yours just blatantly false (unless you're planning on taking the team up against your average run of the mill squads, in which case, yeah, it'd look a lot like the dream team games)

Just my opinion.
5/29/2013 4:08 PM (edited)
Let me start by assuming we are talking USA vs The World? With that in mind consider the difference in the FIBA style. There was a stretch where the US was getting crushed by inferior talent. Our guys looked clueless at times, which is the main reason for the new structure for USA Basketball. I will give you a starting 5 for conversation purposes, but the team is being designed to be interchangeable based on opponent strength and weaknesses.

Starters?
C- Hakeem Olajuwan - has the foot speed, length, and defensive skills to cover the 3 perimeter game of some of the Eurepean bigs.
PF- Charles Barkley- he scored at will in 92. He will also give you another rebounding option when dream gets pulled away from the basket.
SF- Le Bron James- he gives you to many options . He can guard guards and forwards, he can play the 1,2,3, and 4. And is smart enough to figure out his roll around the other players on the court.
SG- Michael Jordan- no explanation needed.
PG- Magic Johnson- mainly for his ability to orchestrate the offense, but he can play every position on the court if needed.

Alternates
Larry Bird- Because it would be disrespectful to not have him on the roster.
Kareem Abdul Jabar- would fit nice if you moved Dream to the 4. And with FIBA going to the thinner lane the Sky Hook would give the World nightmares.
Reggie Miller- can spread the floor, hit the clutch shot, or put it on the floor and drive past you. The FIBA game will rely so much on the 3 that you need to make sure you can keep up.
Chris Paul- to handle water bug PG (Bill Simmons). A good substitute to relieve Magic and gives you a different look than Magic.
Dennis Rodman- We need no more scoring. But the main reason here is the World is no longer scared of our players. Teaming him and Barkley would give us some intimidation as well as an irritant. Plus the fact that he would provide us with a master Flopper so abundantly accepted in FIBA.
Scottie Pippen- to have a comfort/reliability level with MJ when we go lock down defense and "release the dobermans". A poor mans Le Bron.
Tim Duncan- understands the team concept. Has superior footwork. Can guard all European bigs.

Head Coach- Greg Popovich
AHC- Mike Kryzesjkihvcdfftgnkne

Missing the Cut
Wilt Chamberlain- Would struggle as a perimeter defender. Plus, his FT% would be a liability. FIBA teams will foul a poor FT shooter even if they have the lead.
John Stockton- IMO Paul give you a huge defensive upgrade here.
Kevin Durant- Don't need his scoring which is his biggest asset. If he were to make it I would pull Reggie, but at this point in KD's career he doesn't have the skins on the wall that Reggie has.

Close Game Late with the lead
C- Kareem
PF- Bird
SF- Jordan
SG- Magic
PG CP3
Still gives me a team that can score and rebound pretty well. But most importantly, no liabilities at the line.

We need a bunch of 3's

C- Le Bron
PF- Bird
SF- Jordan
SG- Reggie
PG- CP3
Gives you a 3pt threat from every position, as well as everyone being able to create their own shot or a shot for others. You would clearly want to get the ball in the hands of Bird or Reggie.

Releasing The Doberman's
C-Hakeem
PF- Le Bron
SF- Rodman
SG- Pippen/Jordan
PG- Jordan/Pippen
Unequaled pressure. Speed at every position. Pip and MJ take turns hounding the opponents PG while Le Bron patrols the few passing lanes available.

Let's Grab Every Single Rebound
C- Kareem
PF- Barkley
SF- Rodman
SG- Le Bron
PG- Pippen
Every player gives you a dominant rebounder for their position.

Down 1 with 8 seconds Left, we have the ball
C- Duncan
PF- Barkley
SF- Bird
SG- Reggie
PG- Jordan
I'm putting Jordan at the point because there is no better shot maker/creator. MJ would penetrate the lane if the defense collapses he would have the option of Barkley or Duncan from about the 12ft range or Bird and Reggie on the wings. If the defense doesn't collapse, that's their *****.





5/29/2013 10:22 AM
Agree and disagree. Great offense can outweigh great defense, you gave some great examples of that. What I am saying though is that even if you played barkley-kobe-magic (your example)... I'm Pretty confident. I am fine with MJ holding Kobe (note: I'm not saying shut him down but MJ on Kobe is the difference between Kobe going 16-25 and 9-25.... 9-25 will still get Kobe his 23-24 points but that is a HUGE difference, especially across a playoff series). I'm also fine with LeBron on Magic, who once again will make plans but not at a great frequency. Magic also was not a great shooter, giving LeBron another advantage of being able to play off of him; Magic being big doesn't help when your playing a guy who is bigger and faster. Then with Hakeem and Russell inside I am suspecting they could hold Barkley (one of my favorite post players to watch and one of the greatest passing front court players) to something like his '93 Playoffs where he got his 26 points, but on 47% shooting. I'd expect those numbers to considerably less against the Dream and Russell (with LeBron being the guy they would try to force the P&R switches on). 

And then at the end of the day, aside from the fact that I think a team of Magic-Kobe-Barkely could be held by my squad to ~88-92 points a game for a series the question then becomes can Kobe/Magic/Barkley defend MJ/LeBron/Dream? I don't think so. Depending on who your other players are I think we're looking at a 5 game series with 1 game when Kobe and Barkley's superior offense carries them.

Just my opinion.
5/29/2013 12:17 PM (edited)

how was Magic not a great shooter? he wasnt Ray Allen or anything but he was accurate enough to hurt you if you gave him room and he even developed a decent 3pter as that shot became more fashionable

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