6/21/2012 11:09 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 6/21/2012 8:28:00 AM (view original):
Maybe it's along the lines of taking a multivitamin every day. Does it matter? Do you feel any different? Am I healthier? Maybe I get to the point where you think it doesn't effect anything, yet I keep taking them. It's an interesting idea.
But you still know you're taking them.
6/21/2012 11:20 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/21/2012 8:45:00 AM (view original):

Clemens was a fat kid.   He started working hard and became a great pitcher at every level.  
None of us understand how much he did to be the best at his profession for a period of time.   Nonetheless, from the book, I gathered that Clemens believes hard work can overcome limitations.  However, Father Time always wins.  So he took some supplements(maybe legal, maybe illegal).  He was able to work harder(which, as I said, is what legal/illegal supplements do) and get back to where he was.   It's not inconceivable that he convinced himself that he was becoming a lazy, complacent fat kid again and that he needed a kick in the *** to get his mental focus back.   The placebo effect is real.   And I can see Clemens believing that what he was taking did nothing but convince him he could work harder.    If he and McNamee never specifically discussed steroids or HGH, he could create enough doubt in his mind to believe he was taking B12.

I think you're giving him a very generous benefit of the doubt.


6/21/2012 11:28 AM
Read the book. 

I'm sure Clemens was taking something.   But I also believe people can convince themselves of things if they can push a sliver of truth in there.

The book was not written to make Clemens look good.  However, it portrayed a man with a focus and work ethic that "normal" people can't fathom.   I can see Clemens believing, assuming McNamee said "I'm injecting you with steroids"(and I'm not sure that's the case), that McNamee was full of **** and simply charging him for something he didn't get.   That the confidence boost he got from these BS injections are what allowed him to rededicate himself to his regimen and regain his form.
6/21/2012 11:35 AM
The guy is arguably one of the top 2 or 3 pitchers ever.  I'm sure he's incredibly driven, incredibly hard working, and incredibly competitive.

All of those qualities make it easier for me to believe that he would willingly take steroids if he thought they would make him better (or allow him to work harder, recover from fatigue or injury faster).

He's someone who has done what it takes to be the best his entire life.  I don't think that he would get to his early thirties, see his skills start to decline a little, and not view steroids as a viable solution and a continuation of that same drive to do what it takes.
6/21/2012 11:39 AM
And, as I keep saying, it's entirely possible that he believes whatever BM was shooting into his *** did nothing for him physically.   That he recovered simply by willing himself to work harder.  
6/21/2012 11:44 AM
I guess that's possible.  I would say unlikely, but possible.

What does it matter?  If he knowingly took steroids does it change the way you view him?  Is he no longer a hall of famer in your eyes?  Because that really doesn't change anything for me.  Steroids or not, the guy is an all time great.
6/21/2012 11:49 AM
It matters to some people.    I couldn't care less.   I don't have a problem with PED.   I also don't have a HOF vote.

As for mind manipulation, I'm not surprised that people can convince themselves of what they want/need to convince themselves of.   Watch a few shows on the study of the brain, in particular the mental reactions of convicted killers, and you'll realize that brains don't function the same in everyone.
6/21/2012 11:54 AM
Obviously.  But we can assume that Clemens is an adult with a functioning brain.  And, since that is true, we can hold him responsible for the actions he takes.  Allowing a trainer to inject him with a mystery substance is his choice, but he's still responsible if that mystery substance ends up being illegal.
6/21/2012 11:54 AM
Do you think Bonds should be in the hall of fame?
6/21/2012 12:07 PM
No one knows what mystery substance was injected.   Maybe even Clemens.  As I said, I'm sure he never said "Brian, I just bought these steroids.  Inject me!"  As for illegal, steroids/HGH have recently been made a banned substance by MLB.   They weren't during the Steroid Era.    Cocaine is an illegal substance.   My guess is a whole boatload of players from the 80s used cocaine.   I remember the parade in/out of the courtroom.

I won't let this get derailed into a Bonds discussion but the same rules apply.   Not a banned substance at the time.   Looks like he put up some pretty good numbers.   Seems hall-worthy to me.
6/21/2012 12:10 PM
I agree that Bonds should also be in.  Arod?  I think he is also an all time great and should be in the Hall.  Agree?
6/21/2012 12:14 PM
I generally wait until a player's career is over to decide but, unless he's caught using a banned substance now, sure. 

If you're slowly working your way to a point, just jump ahead.    I'm not going to answer yay/nay to all accused PED users. 
6/21/2012 12:19 PM
I have no point, just general curiosity about your views on PED users.

My view is we know that steroids were taken, probably starting sometime in the 80's, by both hitters and pitchers, by more players than we can probably imagine.

We evaluate the players based on what they did on the field, allow them into the hall of fame based on those results, and understand the context of the time period in the same way that we know that Babe Ruth didn't have to play against black people, that many great players missed huge chunks of time in the 50's due to the wars, and that guys took greenies in the 70s/80s/90s because they needed the stimulants to get through the season.
6/21/2012 12:35 PM
If a player broke the rules of baseball, he shouldn't be in the HOF.   Or, at the very least, his indiscretions should be noted on his plaque.   A Scarlett Letter so to speak.

So, PED users that were suspended won't get much love from me(Palmeiro, Manny). 

Admitted or accused users BEFORE they were specifically banned don't bother me.

The whole point of this thread was to point out that the PED-haters wanted an accused player to do exactly what Clemens did.   He did everything demanded of him and now it's still "No HOF.  I know he used PED.  I just know it."
6/21/2012 12:52 PM (edited)
I guess the question then becomes, what rule breaking is serious enough to warrant exclusion?  Obviously gambling gets you the boot because of the incentive to lose.  But are steroids worse than greenies? Are they worse than HGH?  Are they worse than spit balls or corked bats?**  Those are all against the rules, and they all help you (with maybe the exceptions bat corking and HGH) perform better.

Steroids were specifically banned in 1991.  Clemens' likely steroid use would have come after that date.

**rhetorical questions, I don't expect you to answer.
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