All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Gold Glover Jeter, Best SS Evah!!!, robbed of MVP
3/14/2013 4:07 PM
Yah, but did you notice that the Yankees decline in WS success coincided with Jeter's decline in range?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
3/14/2013 5:19 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/14/2013 3:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 3/14/2013 3:41:00 PM (view original):
So your line for the HOF is "didn't keep his team from winning more WS" and "didn't cause his team to struggle greatly?"  Jeter didn't win the WS, the Yankees did.  Last year the Giants won the WS with Brandon Crawford at SS.  If they win another couple of series does that make him a HOFer?  Team success has very little to do with HOF credentials from where I stand...
Once we got passed the dumbassery of "probably good enough for the HOF", we moved on to "would the Yanks have been better off with another SS and Jeter at another position?"

Seems to me the Yanks fared quite well with Jeter at SS.    Do you disagree?
Even this argument, now that you're clarifying it, is a huge fallacy.  Sure, they did well.  That in no way precludes the possibility that they could have done better.  Certainly when A-Rod was acquired it was ridiculous to have the legitimate defensive SS be the one forced to change positions...  But then again, in spite of being one of the 2 best players in the world at that time, he was still the guy with the smaller ego.
3/14/2013 7:26 PM
LOL.  The guy who took 'roids, despite being one of the best players in the world, so he could be better and did this had the smaller ego.





Yeah, OK.   A-Roid moved to 3B, willingly, because he wanted the world to perceive that he was a "team guy".    Plus, taking the D responsibility away would allow him to bulk up and, shockingly, hit more homers so he could be the all-time home run king.
3/14/2013 7:33 PM
Here's what we know and don't know about that entire situation.

1.  We don't know if the Yanks asked him to move.
2.  We don't know if he would have moved if they did.
3.  We do know they did ask A-Roid if he'd switch positions if they acquired him.  He said "Yes".

My thinking is he wasn't asked.   He was the King of NY and the Yanks were doing just fine without A-Roid.  The fan backlash if they failed with A-Roid at SS would have been out of this world.    I also doubt, if they did ask, that he would have moved.  Great players always have a degree of selfishness.   Even those that are "probably good enough" for the HOF in your eyes.
3/15/2013 10:25 AM
Posted by dahsdebater on 3/14/2013 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/14/2013 3:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 3/14/2013 3:41:00 PM (view original):
So your line for the HOF is "didn't keep his team from winning more WS" and "didn't cause his team to struggle greatly?"  Jeter didn't win the WS, the Yankees did.  Last year the Giants won the WS with Brandon Crawford at SS.  If they win another couple of series does that make him a HOFer?  Team success has very little to do with HOF credentials from where I stand...
Once we got passed the dumbassery of "probably good enough for the HOF", we moved on to "would the Yanks have been better off with another SS and Jeter at another position?"

Seems to me the Yanks fared quite well with Jeter at SS.    Do you disagree?
Even this argument, now that you're clarifying it, is a huge fallacy.  Sure, they did well.  That in no way precludes the possibility that they could have done better.  Certainly when A-Rod was acquired it was ridiculous to have the legitimate defensive SS be the one forced to change positions...  But then again, in spite of being one of the 2 best players in the world at that time, he was still the guy with the smaller ego.
I agree with most of this. Just because they did well, doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been trying to run the team better. They gave a lot of at bats to Ricky Ledee, Scott Brosius, Rondell White, and Shane Spencer. Along with letting Soriano play second and moving Arod instead of Jeter.

But I don't think Arod could play short today and even if Jeter is one of the worst defensive shortstops in baseball, Arod wouldn't be a defensive upgrade.
3/15/2013 1:33 PM
It's easy to look at the results and say "Damn. They gave a lot of AB to........and he sucked."   Two problems:

1.  You don't really know how a player will produce until after the fact.   Brosius had a couple of good seasons with the Yanks(his first and last).  Spencer came out on fire in 1998 and had a serviceable BL career.  Soriano had to play 2nd because Knoblauch couldn't.  Ledee had an OPS of .776 in just under 600 PA with the Yanks. 
2.  Even the Yankees couldn't have an A/S at every position.   All teams have to save somewhere.
3/25/2013 9:20 AM
Uh-oh.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/madden-hurting-jeter-painful-watch-article-1.1298219

Not sure if I've said it here or not but I think Rivera, Jeter and Pettite all call it a day after this season.   We already know Rivera will.  And Pettite has done it before also.    With the boys intent on cutting payroll, the chances of the Yanks contending next year are pretty slim.   There will be no reason for Jeter to limp thru a 78-84 season in 2014.
3/25/2013 9:36 AM
I can think of 8 million reasons why Jeter will play next year.  And if this season is injury-plagued, I would guess his mentality is like Mo's - "I'm not going out like this."

I agree that Pettitte is done after this season.
3/25/2013 9:46 AM
I think, if he wants, he walks into a studio and gets a job after the Yanks last game this season.   I can't imagine that he'd "need" that 8m.   That said, if he goes thru a year where he gets 230 AB and hits .212, he might come back.

3/25/2013 12:43 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/25/2013 9:46:00 AM (view original):
I think, if he wants, he walks into a studio and gets a job after the Yanks last game this season.   I can't imagine that he'd "need" that 8m.   That said, if he goes thru a year where he gets 230 AB and hits .212, he might come back.

Assuming the Yankees want him back. Not a lot of value in an old, bad defensive shortstop (term used loosely), who hits .212. Yikes. 
3/25/2013 12:57 PM
Player option.   That means they don't get to decide.
3/25/2013 12:59 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/25/2013 12:57:00 PM (view original):
Player option.   That means they don't get to decide.
Unconditional release. The team ALWAYS decides.

Like you said before, wins are more important to the Yankees than money. Playing a "shortstop" with negative value is a bad idea for a team concerned with wins.
3/25/2013 1:39 PM
I think you and I both know that the Yanks will not release Jeter next year if he accepts his option. 

IMO, the way Cashman is talking about Jeter and the DL now, I think he's attempting to say "YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO PLAY A COMPETENT SS".   To me, it's a message they're trying to send not only for this season but for next season also.   They may give him a PR job next year making some big money so he will decline the option and both can save face. 

As far as money vs. wins, that's changing.  Has been for a couple of years.   The H&H boys are far more concerned with the bottom line than George ever was.
3/25/2013 1:41 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/25/2013 1:39:00 PM (view original):
I think you and I both know that the Yanks will not release Jeter next year if he accepts his option. 

IMO, the way Cashman is talking about Jeter and the DL now, I think he's attempting to say "YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO PLAY A COMPETENT SS".   To me, it's a message they're trying to send not only for this season but for next season also.   They may give him a PR job next year making some big money so he will decline the option and both can save face. 

As far as money vs. wins, that's changing.  Has been for a couple of years.   The H&H boys are far more concerned with the bottom line than George ever was.
But $8 million isn't a ton of money to eat for most teams, really and especially not for the Yankees. If Jeter plays half the year and hits .212, he's done in the Bronx.
3/25/2013 1:47 PM
I don't think it's the money.    Jeter has been the "face of the franchise" forever.   The Yanks got a lot of backlash for the way they handled the negotiations in this last contract.    Like it or not, they can't alienate the fanbase.    If they had some stud SS in the minors, it might be another story.   If they were able to make a playoff run WITHOUT Jeter this year or WITH an ineffective Jeter, it might be a different story.   There are a lot of ways it could play out but I don't believe the front office has the balls to outright release Jeter.   No one cheers for owners/GMs.
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All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Gold Glover Jeter, Best SS Evah!!!, robbed of MVP

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